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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

512 replies

invisibleoldwoman · 04/05/2018 18:20

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/04/standing-up-for-transsexual-rights?CMP=share_btn_fb

OP posts:
TheUterati · 04/05/2018 21:05

spontaneous In my general outrage I missed that gem.....
That aswell....

OlennasWimple · 04/05/2018 21:05

I'm glad that the letter was written and glad that it was printed (especially the Guardian)

Gender critical transwomen are in a bit of a bind: if they are silent, we say "why are they not speaking up?" If they speak up we say "why are they still calling themselves women?" I don't think that we should set the bar so high that no-one is able to pass over in terms of what a "good" feminist ally looks like

And personally I am content with a man calling himself a transwoman, and for transwoman to be recognised more generally as a sub-set of man. It's only those who claim that transwoman is a sub-set of woman that I have a problem with.

TheElementsSong · 04/05/2018 21:06

Their voices will be listened to where ours are not

I totally get where you're coming from. But if I may chuck in my two pence?

Elsewhere on another internet board, I have seen discussion about this issue stomped on, emphatically, because (an approximate quote but the gist was exactly this): "The only people who should be allowed to express an opinion about the trans issue is trans people" and this sentiment was strongly supported by several forumites.

I don't know how widespread this angle is amongst people out there (I think it's pretty common), but nevertheless one could hope that at least some people might be persuaded to slightly consider our POV, now that a number of trans people have publicly stated their position.

OlennasWimple · 04/05/2018 21:08

Spontaneous - who is that?

spontaneousgiventime · 04/05/2018 21:09

Spontaneous - who is that? Jayceedove

OrchidInTheSun · 04/05/2018 21:10

Oh, I didn't know about attacking swearyg :(

That's shit and I'm feeling all shittily female socialised

Jayceedove · 04/05/2018 21:11

I understand the reservations some have and the wish to 'go call yourself men'.

I think with most of us you will find that a hard step, simply because we will have lived socially as women for so long in many cases. It would be like transitioning all over again.

Not saying it will be impossible for all. It can be debated.

Anything can and should be. I would not want any limits on what can be included.

We are agreed on the fact that biologically male is correct and that we do not change sex.

We are also agreed that YOU are women and WE are transwomen, so not the same thing, and not attempting to usurp the term women from you or to make you use terms like Cis which are absurd.

We also are agreed that we are not 'more' trans than anyone else and not looking to be regarded as more a women because of that and the best we can expect is to be regarded as possibly less threatening because of our acceptance of reality, the need for therapy and the extent of the steps we are willing to take to move away from male bodies.

These do not make us women but in some ways perhaps less men.

Also that safe spaces for women are safe spaces and that there are lines not to cross even with a GRC. And we are happy to not presume anything.

I think that is a start. It might be that the younger generation will find it easier to go the way you hope regards to definitions.

spontaneousgiventime · 04/05/2018 21:12

OrchidInTheSun Don't feel bad, I supported Jayceedove too. I stuck up for Jayceedove and got my arse kicked. It wasn't until Sweary came onto the thread and told me what had happened. Believe me, their tall tales are easy to fall for.

Amalfimamma · 04/05/2018 21:13

@spontaneousgiventime eh what? Confused

spontaneousgiventime · 04/05/2018 21:14

Amalfimamma Sweary will tell you herself. Jayceedove supported her on here, you know the pat on the head sympathy, then went onto Angels to laugh at her.

Amalfimamma · 04/05/2018 21:16

@spontaneousgiventime jaysis that must have happened when I wasn't on here and I had no idea.

I thought jaycee was like Miranda and coherent.

spontaneousgiventime · 04/05/2018 21:18

Amalfimamma It's a few weeks ago now. I spoke with Sweary in private and apologised (she was very gracious and told me I didn't owe her an apology) but yes, that's what happened.

Jayceedove · 04/05/2018 21:19

This is something to do with a radio programme Sweary did last month I think. Where as far as I know I supported her on here and on a trans forum but I said something wrong.

I really did not intend to. As far as I know I supported her on both places and attacked the man presenting the show.

Wanderabout · 04/05/2018 21:19

We are agreed on the fact that biologically male is correct and that we do not change sex.

This and the other points raised in the post plus openness to proper democratic debate are common ground from which a way forward could be found.

Pywife2 · 04/05/2018 21:20
  • For many years men have identified as women and women as men. I don't have a problem with people who find their one life is happier identifying as the other sex. AS LONG AS they don't claim to "be" the other sex, they don't compete against the sex they want to identify as for sex specific lists and sports and they don't insist the other people in that sex use silly prefixes like "cis" and have "privilege" and angrily protest against them*

I'd go with this and I'd just like to add some more 'fawning praise' for the writers of this letter. Thanks to them all for putting their heads above the parapet when so many (all!) of our elected representatives are avoiding this issue.

People can't help being born men. They have a choice about whether to support women or not and if they do, especially by giving well-reasoned arguments when simply to do so puts them at risk, they get my support.

Jayceedove · 04/05/2018 21:23

I can only guess she misread my attack on the man presenting the show as being on her. But it wasn't. I said she presented her case fairly and well and actually said of the transwoman on with her she had an unfortunate voice for radio. There was nothing on that programme to laugh about other than the idiot man who presented it and went on about Sweary saying all men were violent and moved the discussion away from what it was about.

Is that it? I never really understood from that thread what happened?

spontaneousgiventime · 04/05/2018 21:26

Jayceedove If people read your posts on here AND on Angels, you "never mean anything". Anyway, I'm done talking to you, people will see through you themselves soon enough.

gendercritter · 04/05/2018 21:34

Another obe who is grateful to the signatories. It took guts to write and it is important trans people are speaking up and saying these things

Amalfimamma · 04/05/2018 21:34

@spontaneousgiventime

Holy crap i only came back when Helen and sf attacked us

spontaneousgiventime · 04/05/2018 21:37

Holy crap i only came back when Helen and sf attacked us Yeah, it must be two, three weeks ago, something like that anyway.

Just a little bit more info, it appears Jayceedove has not even signed the letter in Jayceedove's real name. Angels is a goldmine sometimes!

soupforbrains · 04/05/2018 21:38

Just want to add my voice to those saying thanks and also admire the bravery and guts demonstrated by everyone who signed this letter.

Taking a stance to defend free and honest debate on the issues at play is critically important. For BOTH sides.

Jayceedove · 04/05/2018 21:41

Spontaneous, please enlighten me as I really do not know what I said that upset Sweary. I am very happy to apologise for anything if I did. As I am not one to be mean to people on purpose.

I certainly do not say that when I first came on Mumsnet I was not taken aback by some of the stark views. It was strange and scary and nobody had called me a man to my face in 40 years.

There were posts suggesting as a transperson I was colonising women and exterminating them like settlers from Europe did to the native Americans. It was so far removed from what I knew that I probably chuckled at them as I did not understand the basis and it was a better reaction than getting angry.

I can see from weeks reading on here where they come from now even if I do not really understand the analogy.

So I might have made some comments that don't sit well with you now.

And, yes, I was trying to find a bridge to build between here and trans people on Angels so I might have from time to time said what I was hearing to look for reactions there .

But that's why I came on here to see your side of the argument and to understand. It is what you often ask trans people to do on here. I was trying to see this from both sides and you can only do that by engaging both sides.

My posts on Angels have generally taken the same line as on here - that's why I became increasingly alienated by them and squeezed out. Anyone reading them will see that and how being on here hardened my stance on things and became more and more focused. And further and further away from the hard line on there. To the point of having to make a choice.

But I was never conscious of laughing at people and I know what I posted about Sweary on that radio show as I went off and read it the night of that thread sure I must have done something I had not realised inadvertently.

spontaneousgiventime · 04/05/2018 21:44

Jaycesdove You know fine well I don't need to 'enlighten you', you were on the thread when Sweary came to say what had happened. Also, I told you, I'm done with you. People will see what you're all about soon enough.

cistersofterfy · 04/05/2018 21:44

I'm not condemning JayceeDove for not signing that letter with their offline name. I took on the LGBT+ Lib Dems twitter account under my real name and it was terrifying!

The rage out there is something to behold.

Jayceedove · 04/05/2018 21:45

Spontaneous, they had my real name but as I said earlier in this thread that I used this name there as it is what I use everywhere when talking about trans matters. So it meant anyone could contact me. And also to protect my family from abuse, which we all knew would come. I had to talk to them before I could agree to sign.

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