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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

References to underage sex on Sex board

362 replies

BenCoopersSupportWren · 23/02/2023 23:02

I haven’t been following the Sex topics in Active furore too closely, beyond agreeing on one of the early threads that it would be better for the Board to revert to the way it was - out of Active, with a longer qualifying time to be able to post.

However I’ve just read a thread which, on the face of it, is just reminiscing about posters’ ‘first times’ but which includes numerous disclosures of underage sex, including some that involved grooming, and one or two that are genuinely heartbreaking testimonies of child sexual abuse. They are particularly jarring interspersed as they are between end-of-pier type humour and jokes of others’ experience.

As I just posted there: “there is a reason most ‘mainstream’ dedicated end-user sex sites like Literotica, BDSMLR etc don’t allow stories or posts that are explicit about underage sex even when clearly written by adults, and will remove such posts when brought to the moderators’ attention. I used to work in the CJS and I’m afraid to say that such descriptions - even when expressed in short and simple terms - have currency among paedophiles. Part of my job was keeping the video testimony of CSA victims and any associated transcripts locked away so that they didn’t fall into the wrong hands. Unfortunately it’s not just explicit photos and videos that they get off to.”

For clarity, by “explicit about underage sex” I mean making specific reference to, not that the material has to be particularly sexually explicit. The exact same thread would simply not be allowed to stand on Literotica’s chat forum, for example.

While there have always been examples in other parts of the site of posters making disclosures of having been abused, that is a very different thing to sharing it in a section that only the most naive or wilfully obtuse would deny will be used in part for titillation. My issue isn’t that the thread is particularly sexually explicit - it mostly isn’t, and I’m pretty broad-minded… in context. But no one could argue that “where did you lose your virginity?” is masquerading as a support / how to / informative thread; it’s for entertainment and kicks only, be the latter humour or a sexual thrill. (A few posters on that thread have been supportive to those who disclosed their abuse, but ‘support’ is clearly not the original purpose of the thread.)

IMO it is extremely remiss of MN to disregard the ‘good practice’ rules that other sex sites maintain for handling material relating to references to underage sex/CSA, both because of the type of person attracted to those sites if such rules aren’t in place and from a liability / arse-covering perspective. This, combined with the lack of any age verification or warning for that part of the site, makes it even more obvious that MN don’t understand what is involved in safely and legally hosting a ‘sex chat site’ or part thereof.

OP posts:
TangledWebOfDeception · 25/02/2023 11:02

@OhYouBadBadKitten I dipped my toe into what I presume was one of your threads once and was fascinated by it, would love a PM when you decide where you’re going. I need a new hobby as Mumsnet was taking up too much of my time!

OhYouBadBadKitten · 25/02/2023 11:09

I have a long list of pms to do. Grin

If we can set something up, Ill make sure word gets out.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 25/02/2023 11:11

I do feel really angry and really sad that I feel that this is necessary though.

TangledWebOfDeception · 25/02/2023 11:13

Yes; but I’m not going to waste any more time on anger and sadness. I’d rather just take myself elsewhere with a small group of people and talk about interesting things rather than having to swim through sewage.

beastlyslumber · 25/02/2023 11:27

I’m not happy to have a sex chat thread here, period. I’m not happy for new mothers to be aggressively targeted with sex toy ads using nasty, dehumanising and ideologically motivated wording, I’m not happy with the Ann Summers collab, and I’m incensed that there wasn’t a team of specifically savvy moderators appointed to oversee the sex chat thread/sex topic as soon as the change was made to registration time, if they were so determined to let it stand.

I think it completely changes the character of MN if this is all allowed to stand.

JustineMumsnet · 25/02/2023 11:44

Hi again... Wow so this took off overnight! It's pretty clear from the strength of feeling and reaction to my post that this isn't so much about the actual affects of moving the Sex topic into Active, or the fact that individually you can avoid seeing it by hiding it, it's as much about tone and feel of the site. As such it seems to me there's no point us waiting for the data and so we'll remove Sex from active shortly.

One of the issues that we've got is that Active is very much the home page of Mumsnet for many - and as ComeTheFckOnBridget says lots of other sites do this differently.

When we launched follow topics last month, many users asked for a way to see a feed of the latest threads from the topics they're following - we're working on that feature at the moment and it will be ready to launch soon and I think over time it could be that Active then evolves to become more of an index and less of a landing page. But we'll see how the introduction of feed goes and what the take up is like before thinking about any further changes.

One thing that's been useful about this discussion is that it's made it clear we should formalise our guidelines on how we moderate the Sex board. As we've said, we have not, over the years, had any particular issues with this board (wrt to pervs, sex pests etc) but I agree we could communicate some clearer boundaries with regard to safeguarding and expected behaviour, so thanks to all who've mentioned that - we'll get on to asap.

Something I want to put on record is that this decision to move Sex threads into Active conversations had absolutely zilch to do with the Smilemakers partnership. There was no pressure put on us to make this move and at no point in any thinking about this did Smilemakers come up. Over the years we've literally turned down millions of pounds from brands because we've categorically refused to engage in disingenuous marketing and/or take money from those brands which don't make parents' lives easier - I think we've shown that we're pretty good at resisting commercial pressure.

Thanks as ever for the feedback and good weekends to all Flowers

lovem · 25/02/2023 11:46

Removing from active is great news @JustineMumsnet, thank you, as is looking at safeguarding more and thinking about tone and feel of the site.

onirgellep · 25/02/2023 11:59

Thank you @JustineMumsnet that's good news indeed

ProbablyNotAGoodIdea · 25/02/2023 12:00

I think that will make a lot of people happy and agree it's about tone and feel, which this can only improve for all users. Thanks, this is the outcome I think most people want.

MassiveWordSalad · 25/02/2023 12:08

That's a start.

Maybe I'm being paranoid but no mention of the Ann Summers collaboration there. No MLMs are one of the specific things mentioned in mumsnet's mission statement.

No mention of the hook-up thread and its perv content.

daisychain01 · 25/02/2023 12:08

I’m not happy to have a sex chat thread here, period. I’m not happy for new mothers to be aggressively targeted with sex toy ads using nasty, dehumanising and ideologically motivated wording, I’m not happy with the Ann Summers collab, and I’m incensed that there wasn’t a team of specifically savvy moderators appointed to oversee the sex chat thread/sex topic as soon as the change was made to registration time, if they were so determined to let it stand.

you aren't alone in having a visceral hatred of the direction of travel on here. I'm actually surprised and to a degree, gratified by the degree of antithesis expressed by many MNers to the "new features" ahem, given that there has been a prevailing culture of self-declared porn use apologists (I abhor porn and can't stand being gas lit by people who say "every man uses porn, you DH does he just doesnt tell you about it") and attitudes that I can't align with. I would have thought most people would say meh what's the problem, but it is a problem There seems to be nowhere on the internet to escape to.

I've long-since recognised that my values are so 'old hat' (and increasingly incompatible with the opinions of the majority) that I have often held back posting my opinions, because I'd be shouted down. This is probably the only thread I've known that articulates the disgust we feel about being regaled with vibrator adverts, toys for the bedroom, combined with the vile woman-denying vocabulary.

It does feel like selling your soul to the devil and condoning it by staying on here. I guess, for me, I will watch and wait to see if any improvements and tightening up of the regs and moderation, gives me a greater comfort factor they are listening to our concerns.

LucyLeave · 25/02/2023 12:09

Now you just need to get rid of the hook up thread.

daisychain01 · 25/02/2023 12:10

as for the sex-chat thread, I have to admit I didn't know about it clueless but it sounds like somewhere to avoid like the plague. I'll stick to the Gardening thread.

beastlyslumber · 25/02/2023 12:12

Thank you, Justine. I think this is a good outcome.

One thing I'd add is that the sex chat thread shouldn't be allowed to stand. MN isn't a place to find hook ups. If you continue down this path, you will need very robust safeguarding and moderation, and you are still likely to find yourself on the wrong side of the law. Hosting descriptions of CSA on these threads is creating sexualised images of children, according to the law. That's something you will need to take extremely seriously, please.

TangledWebOfDeception · 25/02/2023 12:14

It’s too late for me @JustineMumsnet.

You really should not have to have US tell YOU about safeguarding and moderation in respect of hosting sex chat on a parenting and primarily women’s site. Shame on you for allowing that shit to take hold in the first place! Shame on you for proceeding with allowing people to join up purely for the sex topic. You must have known (or you SHOULD HAVE, anyway! You should not need these things explained to you!!) that it’s not a good idea in respect of the overall feel and tone of that topic and secondarily on the site itself.

I’m really sick to death of us doing your work for you. Sort your shit out in this respect. How can you be so stupid? Really! ‘It’s a site for grown ups so people can share what they want...’ That’s the best you could do??

TangledWebOfDeception · 25/02/2023 12:15

I hope someone who is more web savvy than me is saving and archiving this thread because I don’t want it to be deleted now that everything’s ‘sorted’.

ImissLemmings · 25/02/2023 12:17

TangledWebOfDeception · 25/02/2023 12:14

It’s too late for me @JustineMumsnet.

You really should not have to have US tell YOU about safeguarding and moderation in respect of hosting sex chat on a parenting and primarily women’s site. Shame on you for allowing that shit to take hold in the first place! Shame on you for proceeding with allowing people to join up purely for the sex topic. You must have known (or you SHOULD HAVE, anyway! You should not need these things explained to you!!) that it’s not a good idea in respect of the overall feel and tone of that topic and secondarily on the site itself.

I’m really sick to death of us doing your work for you. Sort your shit out in this respect. How can you be so stupid? Really! ‘It’s a site for grown ups so people can share what they want...’ That’s the best you could do??

This.

ProbablyNotAGoodIdea · 25/02/2023 12:22

I don't want to be ungracious given this positive resolution, but it certainly has left a bad taste. The thing is, a sex board on a female-dominated forum is a good idea in theory and I see why they wanted it to work. But when the titles proliferating through Active are rimming, anal, fleshlights, sex chat with married blokes then you know it isnt a board catering to female desire and support, but just another place for pornsick men - like everywhere else on the internet.

Rogue1001MNer · 25/02/2023 12:24

Thank you @JustineMumsnet

Will you also be re-extending the time to 90 days?

Rogue1001MNer · 25/02/2023 12:25

Totally agree, @ProbablyNotAGoodIdea

Very well put

TangledWebOfDeception · 25/02/2023 12:28

ProbablyNotAGoodIdea · 25/02/2023 12:22

I don't want to be ungracious given this positive resolution, but it certainly has left a bad taste. The thing is, a sex board on a female-dominated forum is a good idea in theory and I see why they wanted it to work. But when the titles proliferating through Active are rimming, anal, fleshlights, sex chat with married blokes then you know it isnt a board catering to female desire and support, but just another place for pornsick men - like everywhere else on the internet.

I also agree with this, much more generous, response.

But a lot of things might be good in theory, in an ideal world. However we do not live in an ideal world and it’s time you get your shit together in recognising that and making your policy decisions with that in mind.

RainbowZebraWarrior · 25/02/2023 12:36

Also agree that the hook up thread needs to go. Once you facilitate that kind of thing, you leave yourself wide open, MN.

Seriously, it's an 'accident waiting to happen' I say that as an ex police officer who's ex 7colleagues work in specialist areas dealing with some truly horrific stuff.

Good start, Justine. But please wake up to the bigger picture.

TangledWebOfDeception · 25/02/2023 12:36

And let me just add I’m quite happy to have been ungracious in my response. This isn’t a little dining room table outfit anymore. It hasn’t been for a very long time.

Your window for getting things monumentally wrong on security/GDPR/sex chat and safeguarding/branding direction, matters of taste and decency as well as potential illegality is long past and you really can’t keep being so lax. Otherwise at some point people will stop giving you the benefit of the doubt. I can’t stay because I don’t know what ludicrous mess you’ll get this site into next time. I’m not willing to scream and shout every time anymore.

I’m very grateful for what you’ve done for women over the past few years. Truly. You’ll always have my respect for that. But IMO you’ve made piss poor decisions on this particular issue.

Rhondaa · 25/02/2023 12:59

TangledWebOfDeception · 25/02/2023 12:14

It’s too late for me @JustineMumsnet.

You really should not have to have US tell YOU about safeguarding and moderation in respect of hosting sex chat on a parenting and primarily women’s site. Shame on you for allowing that shit to take hold in the first place! Shame on you for proceeding with allowing people to join up purely for the sex topic. You must have known (or you SHOULD HAVE, anyway! You should not need these things explained to you!!) that it’s not a good idea in respect of the overall feel and tone of that topic and secondarily on the site itself.

I’m really sick to death of us doing your work for you. Sort your shit out in this respect. How can you be so stupid? Really! ‘It’s a site for grown ups so people can share what they want...’ That’s the best you could do??

I think you need to stop back tangled. Too many caps, too many exclamation marks and not sure if calling anyone stupid gives you any moral highground.

TangledWebOfDeception · 25/02/2023 13:04

When they make stupid decisions I’m going to call it like it is. And I will step back when I am ready to do so.