ds has just started year 7 and he’s basically me but worse

[ImDawn]

sorry this is probably going to be a bit all over the place because i genuinely don’t know what i’m asking.

ds is 11 and has just started year 7 and school have already contacted me so many times i’m starting to dread seeing their number come up. we’ve had a number of meetings already as well, which feels ridiculous when he’s only been there a few weeks. he’s been excluded from lessons, refuses to hand work in, walks out of class, swears when challenged, has been caught vaping with other boys and has had several detentions. he’s also had behaviour points for messing about, talking over teachers and refusing instructions. there was an incident last week where he was told to leave a lesson and then swore at the teacher and walked out.

i’m not going to say he’s some innocent little boy being picked on because he isn’t. some of his behaviour is awful and i’ve told him that. the vaping especially i was absolutely furious about. he’s 11 ffs. but this is where i’m struggling because he is basically me at that age. not just a little bit like me, he is me. except worse.

i was awful at school. i hated being told what to do, hated teachers who spoke to me like i was stupid and if i felt embarrassed in front of everyone i’d make it ten times worse rather than admit i was wrong. i was always being called lazy and disruptive and told i was capable of more. i stopped going properly when i was about 13/14 and eventually barely went at all. i left with hardly any qualifications. i’ve worked ever since so it’s not like i think my life is ruined because i didn’t stay in school, but i’ve never exactly had loads of choices either. i’ve done cleaning, warehouse work, admin bits, whatever was available. i’ve just been made redundant from my last job so i’m currently not working.

and i know what you’re probably thinking, that i’m projecting all of this onto him and tbh maybe i am. because when school tell me he’s been difficult i can see it. i KNOW he’s being difficult. but i also know what it feels like when you’ve already decided an adult thinks you’re stupid or badly behaved.

he came home the other day after being removed from a lesson. apparently the teacher told him to start some work, he didn’t understand it so started messing around. teacher told him to stop, he carried on, then refused when told again and eventually got told to leave. he swore. so yes, he behaved like a dick. i told him that. then he said to me “it doesn’t matter what i do they already think i’m a dick anyway”. and honestly that really got me because i remember feeling exactly like that. once i’d been labelled the difficult one, i thought there was no point trying because they were going to tell me off anyway. i’m scared he’s starting down that road already.

the school isn’t even awful, which makes this harder. one of the pastoral staff has been really nice to me and has phoned to talk things through rather than just having a go. another meeting they were actually trying to work out what would help him. one teacher told me he’s funny and bright but chooses to disrupt, another said when he actually does the work he’s perfectly capable. i understand why they’re fed up with him. if you’ve got 30 odd kids and one keeps refusing to do anything and getting the others laughing, i’d be fed up too. but everything seems to be behaviour, behaviour, behaviour. detention, behaviour point, phone call, another detention. we’ve had meeting after meeting and every time i come away thinking yes he needs to change but also what are we actually going to do differently this time?

he’s not like this all the time either. at home he can sit for hours doing things he actually likes. he knows everything there is to know about football. he can tell you who played for which team years ago but apparently his brain doesn’t work when it’s something from school. he’s also good with practical things. he helped his dad fix his bike the other week and concentrated and listened for ages. he likes cooking and will follow a recipe properly if he wants to make something. his football coach doesn’t seem to have any problems with him either. apparently he listens there. so it’s not that he physically can’t listen to an adult. it’s school. and i know how that sounds.

dp thinks i’m making too much of the fact that he’s like me. he says i’m looking at him and seeing myself and then giving him excuses i wouldn’t give another child. he said “you left school and you’ve spent your whole life struggling for money, is that really what you want for him?” which was horrible but i can’t pretend it didn’t make me think.

because no, i don’t want that for him. i don’t want him leaving school at 14 with nothing. but i also don’t want to spend the next five years watching him become more and more of a problem until everyone has decided he’s a lost cause. my mum thinks i’m doing the same thing. she remembers what i was like and says i’m trying to convince myself the school system was the problem for me, so now i’m doing the same with ds. she thinks if i take him out i’m just giving him permission to give up.

i’ve actually started looking into home education, which i never thought i’d say. not because i think it’s some amazing lifestyle, i just don’t know what else i’m supposed to do if school and him are already at war with each other. i’m not even sure i’d be any good at it. i’m not exactly qualified to teach year 7 maths. what happens with gcse’s? what happens when he’s 15 and wants a normal job? what if he just sits on the xbox all day? i’m at home now because of the redundancy so i could technically do it for the time being. dp works nights and sleeps a lot of the day so it would mostly be me dealing with it.

i’ve also looked at alternative provision but i don’t really know what i’m looking at. i don’t want him moved somewhere just because he’s badly behaved and then surrounded by even more kids who are struggling. he’s only just started secondary school. part of me thinks i’m completely mad even considering taking him out this early. then another part thinks if he’s already been removed from lessons, refusing work, walking out, swearing and vaping within a few weeks, what exactly am i waiting for?

dd is 7 and completely different. she loves school, gets her uniform ready the night before and cries if she’s ill and can’t go in. so it’s not like i’m against school full stop. it’s just ds. or maybe it’s me. i genuinely can’t work out which.

i don’t want people telling me he’s a misunderstood angel because he isn’t. he’s a pain in the arse sometimes and i tell him that. but i also don’t think “make him behave” is an answer because obviously i’ve tried that. school have tried that. we’ve had enough meetings about it now and detentions haven’t changed it. shouting hasn’t changed it. taking his phone away hasn’t changed it.

how do you know when you’re actually recognising that your child needs a different environment, and when you’re just projecting your own childhood onto them? because i hated school and left it early and i still don’t really like the whole system. and now i’ve got a boy sitting in front of me who is so much like i was that sometimes it honestly scares me. except he’s worse. and i don’t know if that means i understand him better than the school does or if it means i’m the worst person to be making this decision for him.

He needs to stay in school and learn how to deal with authority or else how will he ever hold down a job.

You say he is like you, have you ever actually sat down with him and talked it through about how much you struggled and did the same things. He might respond to that.

Can you change schools to move him away from those that he is now also influenced by? Let him start afresh elsewhere without the feelings he has that teachers already think he is no good. Speak to them before you go, and let them know in advance about how he has struggled in class with the work.

And check him for ADHD

Lots to take in from your post. What was he like at primary school? Is this new Year 7 behaviour or is this a pattern continued?

Have you considered learning difficulties or ADHD? Being ND is usually genetic so the fact that you also have struggled is a sign that there is more to this than just bad behaviour.

This is pretty extreme behaviour for a Y7 and would be extremely unusual to have just started in secondary. Are the kids he is vaping with also in Y7? What was he like in primary?

Agree with others, it does sound like he might have ADHD? The fact he focuses well on things he’s interested in but completely switched off to schoolwork. Also he seems very sensitive and to internalise the “teachers hate me / I’m rubbish” thoughts which is typical of RSD in ADHD. It’s definitely worth investigating further.

it was a bit of both tbh. he wasn’t an angel at primary school at all but it wasn’t anything like this either.

he was always the boy who talked when he shouldn’t, forgot things, mucked about when he was bored and would argue if he thought something was unfair. there were definitely comments about his behaviour and i had a few meetings with his teacher over the years. but he wasn’t being taken out of lessons or getting excluded or anything like that. he actually liked primary school for the most part and had a couple of teachers he was really attached to.

the biggest change has definitely been secondary school. there are just so many more lessons, teachers and rules and i think he’s gone in determined that nobody is going to tell him what to do. which obviously isn’t going to work.

i suppose that’s part of why i’m so worried because i keep thinking if this is what he’s like after a few weeks, what happens when he’s properly settled into it. he’s always had the attitude but the level of it is new.

yes the boys he’s been vaping with are in year 7 too. they’re not all boys he knew particularly well before secondary either, which i suppose makes me wonder if he’s found his little group and they’re all egging each other on.

primary was definitely nowhere near this level. he could be a pain and there were behaviour issues, but he’d never been excluded from a lesson or anything like that. he did get told off for being disruptive and he had a couple of detentions towards the end of year 6, but nothing that made me think we’d be having this level of trouble a few weeks into secondary.

i think he’s finding the whole thing very different. there’s a lot more moving around, different teachers and obviously he’s got a lot more freedom than he had in primary. he’s also very bothered about looking stupid in front of the other boys, which is something i recognise far too well from when i was his age.

so yes, i probably haven’t made that clear enough in the op. it’s not like he’s suddenly gone from being perfect at primary to this. there were warning signs, but this is definitely a massive escalation since starting year 7.

Of course, you will get many piping up now about potential neurodiversity.

Personally, I stopped reading after learning you told your year 7 child he's 'being a dick.'

I’ll jump on the bandwagon of ‘he sounds neurodivergent and so do you’ cos you really both do.
The chatty/distracted kid (that was me, late diagnosed AuDHD). The difficulty following rules and challenging authority suggests pathological demand avoidance. I wouldn’t jump straight to home schooling or special eduction. I’d be going into school and asking what they think and requesting referral for assessment. There’s clearly something going on and you need to know how you and school can support him to get the best from him.
There’s a book called ‘The Explosive Child’ by Ross Greene I found incredibly helpful when DD was school avoiding in primary school. Helped us to unpick the behaviour and find out what was going on underneath.

What would have helped you at school? What would you have liked someone to tell you when you were doing all that stuff at 13?

It really sounds like he is acting up because his needs are not being met. How is he academically? Is he embarrassed because he can’t do the work? He is trying to establish some kind of reputation- before he is labelled.

I used to support a child who had PDA - and that’s what I’m seeing here. This pretty extreme level of defiance in an 11 year old but so very clever, total sponge, creative, unbelievable problem solver, could out wit most adults….

Honestly if you can afford it then pay for an ADHD review and get him medicated. Don’t wait for the NHS, find a provider who does shared care and start there. Medication will work wonders if he does have ADHD (he definitely does)

I think it's brilliant you are doing research into home ed. Ds2 did year 7 then I home edded him for two years. He went back to school and got 8 GCSEs no problem despite being dyslexic ADHD and autistic
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The main thing is socialising as a home edder. The last thing you want is him roaming around or spending all day playing computer games. Is there any network of home edding families near you ? It was absolutely the reason it worked for my son, social life. Social life ironically school was not providing at all.

We did lots outdoors we did two hours of sitting down spaced out in the day of actual learning poems history geography maths etc. mostly reading aloud.

Ds has better academic results now than both the docs that stayed at school. When he went back at 14/15, he appreciated school a lot more. He went to uni to do history. He has a job now. He has a circle of friends, and the main thing is he wasn't written off as a misfit age 12.

But there is always the danger of projecting your own experiences on to him

Sit down ask him how he feels consult him. Suggest alternatives rather than issuing threats re school/no school. Be aware he may be feeling very vulnerable at school maybe he wants more support there rsthrr than to leave

Extra curriculars like football and drama also really helped my son to grow in confidence and self esteem away from school 'fsilure/labelling"

Ds had SEN and a diagnosis but it didn't save him from feeling very anxious in the school environment. Your son may be feeling the same or he may value it. Ask him.

What a dangerous post.

diagnosing and then telling a parent to medicate their child off a couple of posts

I also think people are very quick to start saying he won't get GCSEs etc...i know children who did not pass their GCSEs despite being in school till 18. Even good schools can fail some children. Children who should have passed, who had no formal diagnosis of anything except anxiety or defiance. The pathways are very slow. Your child can't necessarily wait that long
But maybe stick it out for a year. We did.

Just to say year 7 can often be a point where neurodivergent kids go from sort of coping to not coping at all. So it may indeed be worth exploring the possibility.

I know it's almost a stereotype Mumsnet response, but I also suggest looking into assessment for ADHD, and/or mental health issues. I have ADHD and while my behaviour wasn't as extreme as your sons, I recognise a lot of my younger self in it, from forgetting things to walking out rather than admitting I don't understand.

One advantage of secondary school is that with so many teachers, it's easier to have a "fresh start". Remind him that not every teacher in the school thinks he's bad, and he still has every chance to show that he's not.

The SEN department is your friend here, ours was incredibly supportive even though ultimately we left and then moved to a different school at 14. Teachers have very little training in SEN even when there is an actual diagnosis. They do all sorts that make things worse cornering asking pupils to look me when I'm talking to you, not understanding executive function fails. It's a massive undertaking to suddenly deal with all these children - young teachers sometimes - so they tend to just revert to behaviour policy what else can they do really? But the SEN department will often come up with strategies, like a safe place at lunchtime homework clubs defusing etc

What would have helped you?

As others have said, speak to Senco and get DS on the assessment path.

My DC has also just started Y7 and it’s a huge culture change, much harsher, lots to remember - some of it teacher-specific, and is much more suffocating than schools used to be - a constant on-guard feeling. DC “behaves” and doesn’t have SEN, but I’m not surprised things quickly come to a head for kids who have been masking.

This screams ADHD

I’d potentially suggest with school that an AP placement might be worth a look at. It would need to be the right provision. He’ll end up on a managed move or AP pathway anyway if this carries on and if it doesn’t stop he’ll get permanently excluded.
Don’t remove for home education as you’re not in a position to be able to do it.

I’m not sure home education would be good for your relationship with him and I think it’s too soon for you to consider. Be honest, does it also give you a reason not to get another job ( I say that not as a benefits jibe but in relation to your own struggles with abiding by the system)?

Loads of people have given good advice about SEN so listen to them, however I do also wonder what behaviour is modelled at home. He has a negative view of what his teachers think of him but you call him a dick and a pain in the arse. It’s horrible language to refer to an 11 year old.

Is your DP his dad? What is their relationship like? What are his positive male role models like? How do they respond to his behaviour?

Even if he does have ADHD, that doesn’t give him a pass in life. He’s going to have to abide by rules/laws and respond to authority and management structures if he wants to live in society. Another reason why I don’t think you should pull him out of school. He needs to adapt.
You’re actually in a good position of knowing what it is like for him and what may have worked or improved things for you.

If he continues to act like a dick, then yes, of course the school will think he's one, but he can start to behave and they won't think that anymore. They're hardly likely to be punishing him and thinking he's badly behaved if he turns it around and starts behaving, are they? He needs to want to put the effort in though and I wonder if he's gotten in with the naughty crowd of boys and now he feels he has to act like them? He's 11 now and has to take responsibility for his actions.

Text book ADHD. I hated being told what to do at school, or to wear a uniform or to show up to boring assemblies. Get him assessed. If you can pay and get it done. My parents didnt know what to do with me. I got assessed at 35 and got medication and its the first time my brain and body were calm enough to follow instructions