ds has just started year 7 and he’s basically me but worse

[ImDawn]

sorry this is probably going to be a bit all over the place because i genuinely don’t know what i’m asking.

ds is 11 and has just started year 7 and school have already contacted me so many times i’m starting to dread seeing their number come up. we’ve had a number of meetings already as well, which feels ridiculous when he’s only been there a few weeks. he’s been excluded from lessons, refuses to hand work in, walks out of class, swears when challenged, has been caught vaping with other boys and has had several detentions. he’s also had behaviour points for messing about, talking over teachers and refusing instructions. there was an incident last week where he was told to leave a lesson and then swore at the teacher and walked out.

i’m not going to say he’s some innocent little boy being picked on because he isn’t. some of his behaviour is awful and i’ve told him that. the vaping especially i was absolutely furious about. he’s 11 ffs. but this is where i’m struggling because he is basically me at that age. not just a little bit like me, he is me. except worse.

i was awful at school. i hated being told what to do, hated teachers who spoke to me like i was stupid and if i felt embarrassed in front of everyone i’d make it ten times worse rather than admit i was wrong. i was always being called lazy and disruptive and told i was capable of more. i stopped going properly when i was about 13/14 and eventually barely went at all. i left with hardly any qualifications. i’ve worked ever since so it’s not like i think my life is ruined because i didn’t stay in school, but i’ve never exactly had loads of choices either. i’ve done cleaning, warehouse work, admin bits, whatever was available. i’ve just been made redundant from my last job so i’m currently not working.

and i know what you’re probably thinking, that i’m projecting all of this onto him and tbh maybe i am. because when school tell me he’s been difficult i can see it. i KNOW he’s being difficult. but i also know what it feels like when you’ve already decided an adult thinks you’re stupid or badly behaved.

he came home the other day after being removed from a lesson. apparently the teacher told him to start some work, he didn’t understand it so started messing around. teacher told him to stop, he carried on, then refused when told again and eventually got told to leave. he swore. so yes, he behaved like a dick. i told him that. then he said to me “it doesn’t matter what i do they already think i’m a dick anyway”. and honestly that really got me because i remember feeling exactly like that. once i’d been labelled the difficult one, i thought there was no point trying because they were going to tell me off anyway. i’m scared he’s starting down that road already.

the school isn’t even awful, which makes this harder. one of the pastoral staff has been really nice to me and has phoned to talk things through rather than just having a go. another meeting they were actually trying to work out what would help him. one teacher told me he’s funny and bright but chooses to disrupt, another said when he actually does the work he’s perfectly capable. i understand why they’re fed up with him. if you’ve got 30 odd kids and one keeps refusing to do anything and getting the others laughing, i’d be fed up too. but everything seems to be behaviour, behaviour, behaviour. detention, behaviour point, phone call, another detention. we’ve had meeting after meeting and every time i come away thinking yes he needs to change but also what are we actually going to do differently this time?

he’s not like this all the time either. at home he can sit for hours doing things he actually likes. he knows everything there is to know about football. he can tell you who played for which team years ago but apparently his brain doesn’t work when it’s something from school. he’s also good with practical things. he helped his dad fix his bike the other week and concentrated and listened for ages. he likes cooking and will follow a recipe properly if he wants to make something. his football coach doesn’t seem to have any problems with him either. apparently he listens there. so it’s not that he physically can’t listen to an adult. it’s school. and i know how that sounds.

dp thinks i’m making too much of the fact that he’s like me. he says i’m looking at him and seeing myself and then giving him excuses i wouldn’t give another child. he said “you left school and you’ve spent your whole life struggling for money, is that really what you want for him?” which was horrible but i can’t pretend it didn’t make me think.

because no, i don’t want that for him. i don’t want him leaving school at 14 with nothing. but i also don’t want to spend the next five years watching him become more and more of a problem until everyone has decided he’s a lost cause. my mum thinks i’m doing the same thing. she remembers what i was like and says i’m trying to convince myself the school system was the problem for me, so now i’m doing the same with ds. she thinks if i take him out i’m just giving him permission to give up.

i’ve actually started looking into home education, which i never thought i’d say. not because i think it’s some amazing lifestyle, i just don’t know what else i’m supposed to do if school and him are already at war with each other. i’m not even sure i’d be any good at it. i’m not exactly qualified to teach year 7 maths. what happens with gcse’s? what happens when he’s 15 and wants a normal job? what if he just sits on the xbox all day? i’m at home now because of the redundancy so i could technically do it for the time being. dp works nights and sleeps a lot of the day so it would mostly be me dealing with it.

i’ve also looked at alternative provision but i don’t really know what i’m looking at. i don’t want him moved somewhere just because he’s badly behaved and then surrounded by even more kids who are struggling. he’s only just started secondary school. part of me thinks i’m completely mad even considering taking him out this early. then another part thinks if he’s already been removed from lessons, refusing work, walking out, swearing and vaping within a few weeks, what exactly am i waiting for?

dd is 7 and completely different. she loves school, gets her uniform ready the night before and cries if she’s ill and can’t go in. so it’s not like i’m against school full stop. it’s just ds. or maybe it’s me. i genuinely can’t work out which.

i don’t want people telling me he’s a misunderstood angel because he isn’t. he’s a pain in the arse sometimes and i tell him that. but i also don’t think “make him behave” is an answer because obviously i’ve tried that. school have tried that. we’ve had enough meetings about it now and detentions haven’t changed it. shouting hasn’t changed it. taking his phone away hasn’t changed it.

how do you know when you’re actually recognising that your child needs a different environment, and when you’re just projecting your own childhood onto them? because i hated school and left it early and i still don’t really like the whole system. and now i’ve got a boy sitting in front of me who is so much like i was that sometimes it honestly scares me. except he’s worse. and i don’t know if that means i understand him better than the school does or if it means i’m the worst person to be making this decision for him.

"are there activities he does well and enjoys that build his self esteem and confidence?
do more of these.
help him to find them if he hasn’t.
invest your time and means into fostering these activities, so that he knows what it feels like to do something difficult, to practice, to work hard, to achieve goals." from @velomumhackney

This and this again. it might be a martial art or musical theatre or basketball. It doesn't matter what. Just somewhere new where he can build himself a new self perception and see the rewards of applying himself.

yes i gathered you had a problem with my typing the first time 😂

i’m not inventing rules though am i, i’m typing in lowercase on mumsnet. it’s not a moral failing and it’s not the same thing as refusing to do schoolwork when a teacher tells you to.

i can see why people get annoyed with ds’s behaviour, i get annoyed with it myself. that’s why i’m on here asking what to do about it. but i don’t really see how picking apart the way i type is helping with that.

if you think i’m making excuses for him then fine, that’s your opinion and i’m asking myself the same question. but i’m not going to start writing every post like an english exam just to prove i’m capable of understanding rules. i came on here to ask about my son, not have my punctuation assessed.

When I was around his age, 10, I found a record book in the classroom where our teacher had written accounts of every child in the class and their progress or lack thereof - mine was "Jokes around in class, doesn't put enough effort in, won't ever amount to anything" - I was so embarrassed and outraged, and actually quite shaken, that my first thought was, I'll show you! I was so enraged that it spurred me on to knuckle down and do my best, my grades shot up and my teacher couldn't account for the sudden change in me at all. There was no way I was going to let them go on thinking I was some kind of massive loser, my pride wouldn't allow it. The point I'm making is that if your son is feeling like teachers have pigeon holed him as a failure, how good would it feel to prove them wrong? It would be such a f*ck you to the people who don't believe in him - you need to re-frame it for him. If he carries on behaving as he is then all he is doing is proving them right, which is going to feel horrible. And it's not just about what they think of him, it's what he believes of himself that needs to change. He's been given the gift of a free education - I know most kids don't see it that way, but actually that is the truth. The free education he's been given is a springboard to the life he actually wants. It's all about perspective, if only you can get him to see all this from a different angle so he can reach his potential. I know it's easier said than done getting kids to listen, but if you can get him fired up to prove to his teachers that he is better than they think, then his confidence in himself will improve alongside that.

yup. all the talk of mindset and self esteem sound wafty, but bloody hell, i know i am a strong person and can do hard things because i walked 100km in less than a day. my son knows he can do hard things because he gets up and goes to cross country running training and keeps getting better. my daughter knows she can do hard things because she did a little hill climb cycle last year and then she did it again this year and was faster and so then she wanted to do more hill climbs.

they also know that it doesn’t feel fun at the time.
my daughter cried so much when she finished the last hill climb and i thought we had been cruel or broken her. but she was skipping down the hill twenty minutes later. and told everyone at school.

i’ve been cheerily singing a silly song about doing hard things every day since they started cycling to nursery.
they know deep in their bodies they can do hard things.

and so it’s easy to say “you can do hard things” when they say learning their times tables is hard. and they believe it, and know that hard things just take more practice.

your son is still young.

school is going to be hard he doesn’t have self esteem through success.
but there’s time to build and support him .

I just wanted to say that I find your posts very insightful and well written.You come across and an interesting, thoughtful person, and an excellent mum.

I wish I had answers or advice.

"....apparently the teacher told him to start some work, he didn’t understand it so started messing around. teacher told him to stop, he carried on, then refused when told again and eventually got told to leave. he swore. so yes, he behaved like a dick. i told him that. then he said to me “it doesn’t matter what i do they already think i’m a dick anyway”."

I think this interaction is key. He didn't start work because he didn't understand but instead of checking his understanding, the teacher just told him off repeatedly until he reacted negatively.

I think the teachers need to change the way they handle him. Start from the basis that he may well have ADHD and PDA because that's what they're seeing and treat him accordingly. They need to invite him in for a reset which starts with them apologising for not meeting his needs and him apologising for not asking for help when he needed it. Every task set, the teacher needs to be checking that he understood, checking in with him when he lises focus, setting him a different task when he gets the fidgets and acknowledging when he gets it right.

Yes, to paying for diagnoses if you can afford it but otherwise, get him referred on the NHS and an EHCP up and running.

With the right support, he might just surprise you!

It doesn't sound like you have the ability to teach him yourself, so maybe distance learning on-line, in tandem with plenty of home-ed socials, could be an option if things don't work out at school.

Start with another meeting at school though and ask to speak with the SENCO. Talk about the incident above and how he struggles to accept criticism, follow instructions and concentrate in school, contrasting it with his focus and self-discipline in other areas. Ask them if they would start an EHCP to detail the extra support he needs and would they support a referral for diagnosis.

Good luck, OP.

If you’re going to snipe at others for their grammar, perhaps you should first look to the beam in your own eye. Your comma separates your verb from the clause completing its meaning. Not an error that prevents anyone from understanding your meaning, but if you’re going to pick on others for their grammar, you had better first ensure your own is perfect.

Hi OP

I think I'd try the following (appreciate not everyone can afford this but I think it's worth going without other stuff)

• Physiological assessment - it sounds like he is scared of failure, sacred of not getting it, scared of looking stupid etc. He might just be a little shit, but I think I'd want to rule out that he doesn't have any rejection sensitivity disorder or personality disorder or ADHD and can't control his compulsively, or dyslexia or something which means he genuinely struggles and is playing up to hide his frustration

• Therapy - if he hadn't got any disorder, maybe he needs some help to build up his self esteem so that he doesn't feel like he needs to do stupid things to fit in

• Tutoring. I think it will get worse if he feels like he is genuinely falling behind / doesn't understand. I'd get him some tutors while this is sorted out.

i do understand what you mean about the language but i’m not going to pretend i never swear in front of my children because i do, particularly when i’m frustrated. maybe you don’t and that’s absolutely fine but we’re not all the same.

i wasn’t telling him he was a dick as a person, i was telling him he’d behaved like one. there’s a difference. i’m not saying it was the most constructive thing i could have said but i’m also not going to pretend i’ve never lost my temper with him. i’m a human being and sometimes i get things wrong too.

i do have calm conversations with him, his dad does as well. we’ve had plenty of one on one conversations trying to find out what’s going on and he either says he doesn’t know or that school is boring and the teachers are always on his back. i’m not saying we’ve magically got everything right at home, clearly we haven’t, but it’s not as though nobody has bothered to ask him how he’s feeling.

i’ll have a think about what you’ve said because i know i need to look at my own behaviour as well as his. i just don’t think swearing once in a post means i’m incapable of being a decent parent.

I agree with this 100%:

he said “you left school and you’ve spent your whole life struggling for money, is that really what you want for him?”

Have you tried saying a version of this to your son?

“I didn’t deal with my issues at school and ran away, it meant I had way less opportunities in life and I’ve always struggled for money. Don’t you want to try and get a better future for yourself?”

Sorry OP but there’s an awful lot in your post about yourself. I can’t help thinking your son feels you sympathise with and support him in his bad behaviour, despite the occasions when you say you tell him otherwise. How frequently do you tell him that he’s just like you, and you used to be just the same at school? You’ve given him the message that it’s ok to behave like that.

They think he’s a dick because he is choosing to behave like a dick. They have labelled him difficult because he is choosing to be difficult. My sympathies are with his teachers and the other children in his lessons, children whose full learning opportunities and fair allocation of the teacher's time are being stolen by your son.

What exactly do you want the school to do differently?

For your son to have any sort of decent future life, he’s going to have to learn to get along with the rest of society, which means we follow generally agreed rules even if we don’t always agree with them. I don’t think home education would help him. I suppose moving to a different school would give him a fresh start, but there’s no point in that if he is going to behave in the same way again.

You might try focusing on the good behaviour. Comment on his focus when cooking, or fixing something, praise him for his knowledge of football, have conversations about what he’s good at, what he finds easy and what he enjoys. Gradually you can lead into calm conversations about school.

Perhaps try asking him what happens if he doesn’t understand, and if he says he plays up, ask “what else could you do?” Asking “what else” rather than “what can you do”, means he knows you’re expecting a different answer, so he will think about it for himself, rather than just shrug.

Ignore the bad behaviour, praise him for working hard, for being kind, for being quiet. You’ve tried a lot of other things that are not working, so maybe try this for the weekend and see if it makes a difference.

What have you tried to do to make this better? It comes across in your post that you feel the school aren't doing enough but it's not clear whether you've tried anything? Discipline will need to come from both sides and, ideally, be joined up in the approach so one reinforces the other.

You need to put your own experience aside or perhaps get therapy if you need to work through that. But you need to stop projecting it on to your son and, no doubt, showing him that you don't respect the school which will lead to him thinking the same way.

As a parent of a well behaved child who genuinely wants to learn, I'm pleased to hear your school are on top of behaviour management. It really is not fair on everyone else to have someone "messing about" all the time and being disruptive.

You should look into having him assessed as it sounds like ADHD coupled with oppositional defiance disorder (ODD) to me. If you can manage the ADHD symptoms the oppositional symptoms should lessen.

thank you, this is actually helpful.

his literacy was ok in primary. he can read perfectly well and he’s always been quite good at talking about things he’s interested in, but he doesn’t enjoy writing and will do the absolute bare minimum if he can get away with it. i need to check his sats results because i honestly can’t remember the exact scores off the top of my head. i don’t think he was below expected but i’ll have a look.

there were some behaviour issues in primary as i’ve said to someone else, but nothing on this scale. he could be disruptive and argue with teachers but he wasn’t being removed from lessons or anything like that. there wasn’t any formal support in place that i’m aware of, just the usual conversations with his teacher and being told he needed to concentrate more.

he hasn’t been assessed for anything. i suppose i hadn’t really thought about a learning difference because he’s always seemed capable when he wants to do something, but reading your post i can see that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s not struggling with something. i might ask the school whether they think there’s anything worth looking into rather than assuming he’s just choosing to be difficult every time.

at home he’s generally ok apart from the usual arguing and refusing to do things he doesn’t want to do. he plays football and his coach hasn’t raised any concerns about his behaviour. he can be really focused on football and practical things, which is why i find it so confusing that he seems to switch off completely at school.

i like what you said about finding things he can do well. he does have things he’s good at but perhaps i haven’t thought enough about how to build on that rather than everything becoming about what he’s doing wrong. i don’t want him thinking he’s just the naughty one everywhere he goes.

i think i’ve been so focused on whether i’m making excuses for him that i haven’t properly considered whether he’s finding some part of school harder than he’s letting on. thank you.

I'm a primary teacher with a lot of experience of children with ND and this part jumped out at me too.

My eldest has ADHD and dyspraxia. It does sound as though your son may have something else going on. There were never behavioural concerns but I was at school all the time over academic concerns. He graduated from university and has a good job now but it wasn't until I went in and gave them some suggestions on how to manage him/frame things that we got anywhere. Teachers are woefully undertrained in this area but are experts to be experts. Unfortunately, most are no more experts on ND than anyone else in reality.

Rather than type a huge post, if you want to PM me, I'm happy to share what I said in case it's useful. Even if he isn't ND, it could still be helpful to have a different approach.

But what were the consequences for him at home for arguing with teachers in primary?
Is he ok at home because there aren’t demands on him so he can do what he wants? With football presumably he wants to do it so I don’t think him being well behaved there shows he’s a well behaved child just that he can do it when it matters to him.

With football presumably he wants to do it so I don’t think him being well behaved there shows he’s a well behaved child just that he can do it when it matters to him.

This is a completely typical ND trait.

Op i havent read the whole thread. I think he needs support, like a play therapist, or a constructive way to communicate his embarrassment.

Also agree with others. What was he like in primary school. My stepson was mostly OK in primary but couldn't manage the transition to secondary. It turned out that he was autistic . He's highly intelligent in some areas but lacking in others. Not being able to cope showed itself in bad behaviour, refusals, swearing etc. In the end he went to a school for ND kids but still had attendance problems. Some years later, as an adult, he did GCSEs, university entrance and got a 1st in primary education. He struggles to work at all because he can't really cope with a team or requirements from other people.
Definitely worth checking for ADHD and autism. I hope that the wait isn't too long where you are!

We tried home education but it didn't work because he always tried to take over.
Has the school said anything about checking for ND? Like you we had meeting after meeting and nothing had any effect on him.
Good luck with it all, you are definitely not to blame in any way.

i can see why it comes across that way but i don’t sit there telling him he’s just like me and it’s ok because i did it too. i’ve told him plenty of times that i regret not taking school seriously and that i don’t want him ending up with the same lack of choices i had. the reason i mentioned my own experience is because it’s relevant to why i’m struggling with this, not because i’m proud of how i behaved.

i do agree with you that his teachers and the other children shouldn’t have to put up with him disrupting lessons. i’ve said in the op that i understand why the school are fed up with him. i’m not expecting them to let him do what he wants or saying he shouldn’t face consequences.

what i want them to do differently is what i’m struggling to work out myself. we’ve had several meetings and the conversation always comes back to his behaviour and the consequences for it. i’m not saying those shouldn’t happen, but if the same thing keeps happening despite detentions and meetings then surely it’s worth looking at why as well as telling him off for it? maybe the answer is that he needs firmer boundaries, maybe there’s something else going on, i honestly don’t know.

i haven’t decided to home educate him. i’ve looked into it because i’m worried, not because i think rules don’t apply to us. i know he has to learn to get along with people and function in the real world. that’s exactly why i’m concerned about how things are going already.

i’m not trying to excuse him. i’m trying to work out how to stop this becoming the pattern for the next five years.

I think this interaction is key. He didn't start work because he didn't understand but instead of checking his understanding, the teacher just told him off

I wondered about this.

Of course he might not have understood because he wasn't listening/was already messing about.

He should also know that it's ok to ask if he doesn't understand.

You show a great insight into your son's feelings and behaviour, and I can see how much you love him. Difficult though it was to have gone through similar experiences, it gives you an understanding of what doesn't work. School didn't work for you. I don't think it's "projecting" to assume it may not work for him.

I agree with people who have said that he should be encouraged to do more of the things he loves. He will work hard on them and get very good at them. That will boost his self esteem and reduce his need to act out. And it will make him happy. He deserves to be happy.

That might not be enough to shift the balance. If he is spending six hours a day in a place where he feels misunderstood and incapable and angry, a few hours a day of fixing bikes or building skateboard ramps or playing football will help to counteract that somewhat. But he's still spending most of every day in an unsuitable environment.

Home education would sweep that away. Sure, your lad would still have to do things he dislikes, whether that's using the washing machine or doing maths. However, those things wouldn't have to dominate his life in the way that his time at school now does. You can pick and choose the extracurricular activities which suit him best. If one maths book doesn't make sense to him, you can get a different one. Or tackle maths in a more practical way instead.

You don't have to "teach" when you home educate. You need to help your son learn, providing resources and support. It doesn't have to look ANYTHING like school. The fact you don't have academic qualifications does not prevent you from helping your son.

I have two degrees and some teaching experience. One of my children's friends has a mum who left school young. The mum has unclear speech and severe dyslexia. She is very disorganised. People who don't understand home education would have assumed that my child would have many advantages over hers, and that she would make a terrible job of educating her daughter. Her daughter and mine are now in their late 20s, and had very similar academic outcomes. I spent a lot of time with the girl, and helped her with her CV when she was 16. Her ability to express herself was very similar to my own child's. Home educated kids don't learn only from being instructed directly by their own parents. Their prospects aren't limited by their parents' educational attainment.

behaviour is communication.

now he might not have any learning difficulties.

but he could, for whatever reason have self esteem issues.

football can be great .
but there can also be a lot of comparisons .
a lot of drive to be the best.
to get in a development squad
to get in academy.

so he might not be experiencing the intrinsic sense of satisfaction of working hard and because he is not comparing his development to himself he is constantly being compared to others in the team, the league etc .

could you find some other activities that he could learn where he might find satisfaction from doing it- climbing? kayaking? mountain biking? squash? judo? gym? calestincs? a sport that he and his dad or you could try together.

something that you don’t really give him a choice to opt out of in 2 months because he doesn’t like.

maybe workshop with him.
show him a bunch of options that you can provide him with.
and tell him he needs to choose one or two,
that you could trial those and then choose one to commit to.
my sons new school (state school in a very mixed area) insists all kids need to do 3 co curricular a week, that these hobbies are importnat.
first term they need to try loads- every day a new club. and then by end of year one they need to have done 80 hours at least .
if your school doesn’t do that, then do it yourself- figure out what you can get access to, and then choose something for an after school day and stick with it.
i recognise that can be hard.
financially or geographically.
but you are at a cross roads.

you want your kid so busy and so tired he wants to go to bed every night.

possibly running? swimming? but he is getting to be at the age where so many things like this are being made competative