ds has just started year 7 and he’s basically me but worse

[ImDawn]

sorry this is probably going to be a bit all over the place because i genuinely don’t know what i’m asking.

ds is 11 and has just started year 7 and school have already contacted me so many times i’m starting to dread seeing their number come up. we’ve had a number of meetings already as well, which feels ridiculous when he’s only been there a few weeks. he’s been excluded from lessons, refuses to hand work in, walks out of class, swears when challenged, has been caught vaping with other boys and has had several detentions. he’s also had behaviour points for messing about, talking over teachers and refusing instructions. there was an incident last week where he was told to leave a lesson and then swore at the teacher and walked out.

i’m not going to say he’s some innocent little boy being picked on because he isn’t. some of his behaviour is awful and i’ve told him that. the vaping especially i was absolutely furious about. he’s 11 ffs. but this is where i’m struggling because he is basically me at that age. not just a little bit like me, he is me. except worse.

i was awful at school. i hated being told what to do, hated teachers who spoke to me like i was stupid and if i felt embarrassed in front of everyone i’d make it ten times worse rather than admit i was wrong. i was always being called lazy and disruptive and told i was capable of more. i stopped going properly when i was about 13/14 and eventually barely went at all. i left with hardly any qualifications. i’ve worked ever since so it’s not like i think my life is ruined because i didn’t stay in school, but i’ve never exactly had loads of choices either. i’ve done cleaning, warehouse work, admin bits, whatever was available. i’ve just been made redundant from my last job so i’m currently not working.

and i know what you’re probably thinking, that i’m projecting all of this onto him and tbh maybe i am. because when school tell me he’s been difficult i can see it. i KNOW he’s being difficult. but i also know what it feels like when you’ve already decided an adult thinks you’re stupid or badly behaved.

he came home the other day after being removed from a lesson. apparently the teacher told him to start some work, he didn’t understand it so started messing around. teacher told him to stop, he carried on, then refused when told again and eventually got told to leave. he swore. so yes, he behaved like a dick. i told him that. then he said to me “it doesn’t matter what i do they already think i’m a dick anyway”. and honestly that really got me because i remember feeling exactly like that. once i’d been labelled the difficult one, i thought there was no point trying because they were going to tell me off anyway. i’m scared he’s starting down that road already.

the school isn’t even awful, which makes this harder. one of the pastoral staff has been really nice to me and has phoned to talk things through rather than just having a go. another meeting they were actually trying to work out what would help him. one teacher told me he’s funny and bright but chooses to disrupt, another said when he actually does the work he’s perfectly capable. i understand why they’re fed up with him. if you’ve got 30 odd kids and one keeps refusing to do anything and getting the others laughing, i’d be fed up too. but everything seems to be behaviour, behaviour, behaviour. detention, behaviour point, phone call, another detention. we’ve had meeting after meeting and every time i come away thinking yes he needs to change but also what are we actually going to do differently this time?

he’s not like this all the time either. at home he can sit for hours doing things he actually likes. he knows everything there is to know about football. he can tell you who played for which team years ago but apparently his brain doesn’t work when it’s something from school. he’s also good with practical things. he helped his dad fix his bike the other week and concentrated and listened for ages. he likes cooking and will follow a recipe properly if he wants to make something. his football coach doesn’t seem to have any problems with him either. apparently he listens there. so it’s not that he physically can’t listen to an adult. it’s school. and i know how that sounds.

dp thinks i’m making too much of the fact that he’s like me. he says i’m looking at him and seeing myself and then giving him excuses i wouldn’t give another child. he said “you left school and you’ve spent your whole life struggling for money, is that really what you want for him?” which was horrible but i can’t pretend it didn’t make me think.

because no, i don’t want that for him. i don’t want him leaving school at 14 with nothing. but i also don’t want to spend the next five years watching him become more and more of a problem until everyone has decided he’s a lost cause. my mum thinks i’m doing the same thing. she remembers what i was like and says i’m trying to convince myself the school system was the problem for me, so now i’m doing the same with ds. she thinks if i take him out i’m just giving him permission to give up.

i’ve actually started looking into home education, which i never thought i’d say. not because i think it’s some amazing lifestyle, i just don’t know what else i’m supposed to do if school and him are already at war with each other. i’m not even sure i’d be any good at it. i’m not exactly qualified to teach year 7 maths. what happens with gcse’s? what happens when he’s 15 and wants a normal job? what if he just sits on the xbox all day? i’m at home now because of the redundancy so i could technically do it for the time being. dp works nights and sleeps a lot of the day so it would mostly be me dealing with it.

i’ve also looked at alternative provision but i don’t really know what i’m looking at. i don’t want him moved somewhere just because he’s badly behaved and then surrounded by even more kids who are struggling. he’s only just started secondary school. part of me thinks i’m completely mad even considering taking him out this early. then another part thinks if he’s already been removed from lessons, refusing work, walking out, swearing and vaping within a few weeks, what exactly am i waiting for?

dd is 7 and completely different. she loves school, gets her uniform ready the night before and cries if she’s ill and can’t go in. so it’s not like i’m against school full stop. it’s just ds. or maybe it’s me. i genuinely can’t work out which.

i don’t want people telling me he’s a misunderstood angel because he isn’t. he’s a pain in the arse sometimes and i tell him that. but i also don’t think “make him behave” is an answer because obviously i’ve tried that. school have tried that. we’ve had enough meetings about it now and detentions haven’t changed it. shouting hasn’t changed it. taking his phone away hasn’t changed it.

how do you know when you’re actually recognising that your child needs a different environment, and when you’re just projecting your own childhood onto them? because i hated school and left it early and i still don’t really like the whole system. and now i’ve got a boy sitting in front of me who is so much like i was that sometimes it honestly scares me. except he’s worse. and i don’t know if that means i understand him better than the school does or if it means i’m the worst person to be making this decision for him.

What type of things is he finding unfair at school?

This is a very good point - don't have those things in the house in the first place. They are not good for developing brains at all.

Let's assume he has adhd but you'll either have to pay a lot for diagnosis or wait for years.

So in the meantime I would apply ADHD measures. For my dc this includes pre-school exercise. We walk to school but I know other families who get their kids on a treadmill for 30 mins.

Sleep, get some magnesium to make sure he's well rested.

Diet, lots of protein, cut out as much sugar and upf as possible especially dyes.

Tons and tons of external reward. Think 11 is too old for a sticker chart? Think again! Find a way to reward.

Set expectations clearly. You might think saying "don't mess about" is clear. But have you explained what that actually means?

Find strategies to deal with frustration when he's at school.

And he could well be being bullied by these vape lads. I would talk to him carefully about what is going on there, check all messaging between him and his friends on a daily basis.

As someone who has ADHD and whose dd has ADHD let me tell you....you both have ADHD, and nothing is going to get better until you get a diagnosis, medication, help from outside agencies and SENCO involvement at school. Please start the ball rolling now as it all takes time. There should be SENCO involvement while he is undergoing assessment. Start reading up about ADHD. For instance him being able to concentrate on football trivia is typical of ADHD. Its not that you have no attention, its an inability to regulate that attention. Its not consistent. That's why someone with ADHD can struggle to concentrate on a relatively simple work task, yet spend three or four hours completely absorbed in something they love, barely noticing the time passing. Have a good read, see if it resonates. Have a read about ADHD in women too because it presents very differently. It is likely to be an eye opener for you. It was for me, I was diagnosed in my 40s. I hope you get the help you need for your son.

Also the punishments like grounding etc that work with NT kids just aren't effective with ND kids. Have a read up on that as well,it will help

Is this new or bubbling from primary?

if I take everything as you’ve said, consider trying to work out with him ways to ask for help or get started because those transition moments are where things start to go wrong by the sound of it. This might be asking teachers to check in on him in the first five minutes of a task, or giving him a clear list of approaches (rephrase what I’m supposed to do, look at the last time I did it) but he might be too young effectively do that on his own. If he does have adhd that self regulation part of his brain is also younger than his peers.

getting others to laugh is validation and using it to distract from his embarrassment at finding it hard, I think. He does need to stop that but he needs validation elsewhere, building success.

its very early and they’re getting on top of it now which is great. Who are his trusted adults? What subjects is he good at and feeling confident in?

This hasn’t happened overnight. There must have been warning signs. What have you done in the past to stop him behaving like this?

how is his literacy and comprehension?
did he achieve the expected standards in his SATS?
year 7 is going to be a lot if he can’t follow the class.
and that could be causing his poor behaviour.

has this behaviour just emerged or was his primary school experience the same?
what support was out in place for him?

has he been assessed for a learning difference or neuro diversity.

how is his behaviour at home?
does he belong to sports teams or scouts etc where other adults are able to work positively with him or is his challenging behaviour beyond the classroom.

are there activities he does well and enjoys that build his self esteem and confidence?
do more of these.
help him to find them if he hasn’t.
invest your time and means into fostering these activities, so that he knows what it feels like to do something difficult, to practice, to work hard, to achieve goals.

ao that he can use the same
resilience and focus in school.

Hate to go down the ND route (but am from an multigenerational ND family, both sides, so forgive me), but what you are describing given it was evidenced in primary DOES sound like the ODD/PDA that some ND people have. That you were like this too, and ND is genetic, strengthens the likelihood. We were late diagnosing my children’s ND preceisely because the issues they had and the struggles were like the ones I had, so I assumed it was ‘normal’. We didn’t have behavioural issues - my DD’s [indeed my own] PDA tendencies were shaped/confined by different expectations for girls v boys - but there were huge issues when moving from a gentler, less demanding junior school to a large, rigidly regulated, high demand secondary.

Can I suggest you do as others suggest - sit and talk to him about how you recognise his behaviour as similar to your own, ask him what he is thinking and feeling when he behaves this way - is he feeling threatened, overwhelmed, harassed, embarrassed to have been singled out etc - and explore a referral to an ed psychologist? The school and your GP should be willing to support and send referral documents. Even if it is not an ND related issue, they should through a referral be able to identify if there are other issues such as dyslexia or dyscalculia [remarkably still often missed until secondary school] or whether it is ‘simply’ emotional/psychological distress from the transition.

Amazing how medical professionals require lengthy interviews with both children and parents at the very least before diagnosis but mumsnetters can diagnose from one post on a forum. He might well have ADHD but people need to stop with the absolute certainty that he has it and calls to medicate. There have been loads of practical suggestions of things that might help including seeing a specialist , diet, supplements, exercise etc. medication might be needed but randoms on the internet can’t say. One of my dc is autistic and DH and my DB have ADHD so please don’t think I’m being dismissive.

Of course we cant diagnose but I think its very important to say, its likely they have this, read up on it, seek medical advice. Life can be very hard when you're left undiagnosed with no understanding of your condition. Things are already going badly wrong for OPs DS

Just because you have ADHD, doesn’t make you qualified to categorically say someone else and their child has it. They might have it but don’t full on diagnose on a forum as if you’re qualified to do so.

I really feel for you OP - it's clear how much you care and how hard you are trying.

does he know you had similar struggles at school? I wonder if showing him empathy because you had a similar experience might help you connect with him. It might give you a route to a conversation where you can explain that your life has in some ways been limited by your educational experience, and that you want better for him.

At the same time, are there other avenues you can explore for him to find something out of school that he's good at and can progress in? A club or activity where he might be praised for progress etc. It will set him in good stead for the future even if school doesn't work out the way you'd ideally like if he can show commitment to something else. And if it's a boost to his self esteem, it might help mitigate his feelings of inadequacy in school.

I would also be investigating whether something else in his life has changed between primary school and now, since his behaviour had deteriorated. Does he have a phone or unsupervised internet access? Is it the influence of other kids? See if there are environmental factors you can manage.

Also re previous posts on ADHD - nobody can diagnose here and it's dangerous to pretend to do so but it's certainly worth getting professional input into whether it's a possibility.

🙄

yes because having money is the only possible way a child with peers can access vapes.

That’s a fair point but no need to make it easy for him by giving him money

I was a nightmare in school, always in trouble, drinking and smoking from the age of 13 and I have done everything possible to make sure my children are nothing like me and you should do the same

The OP says he was told to start work but he didn't understand it. I would be betting a lot of money that he didn't understand it because he'd been messing about during the explanation, I met a lot of children like that. right up to Year 11, some of whose parents expected me to now do the lesson again as a 1 to 1, I always offered to do that, but only at break or after school.

You need to work on good behaviour and decent language at home. I mean you just called your son a "dick" in your post and mention you said it to him?

That's not appropriate language, instead tell him he was behaving "badly" or something else.

I am sorry but I think you have to do some reflecting first, then some calm one on one time with your son to find out why he is rebelling for attention - get to the root of the problem.

Just wanted to say you might want to consider homeschooling and getting him diagnosed. I have kids that are ASD and ADHD he is showing some signs there. Might be doing this as he doesn't understand the work too. Hugs it sounds very tough. Your doing your best.

This

One of mine had ADHD, similar behaviour, less extreme. School helped massively. I also got tutors to help.

One thing I was clear about, that ruining the education of others was unacceptable. The school responded well and helped as us as a family as well as him. We had to change too.

Whilst a diagnosis helped it’s actually quite broad and the /support for each child might be more nuanced than a message on a board like this can convey. Engage now.

@ImDawn Most of us are on our phones and equally annoyed by using the shift arrow when typing.

The reason I commented on that was, you are systematically doing that. Inventing your own rules and then making excuses as to why you're doing it. Every single "I" in your posts is "i". It's as irritating and distracting to the reader as your son's behaviour must be to everyone else in his class.

@ImDawn You say you’ve had arguments with him about his behaviour, which makes me wonder if the m.o. at home defaults to arguments and confrontation. Try and have heart to heart talks (not arguments) with him, arguments will get both of you nowhere.

You should both be checked for ADHD and possibly autism. What you described about yourself are classical ADHD traits with a little PDA sprinkled in which is an unofficial part of autism.

Just getting a diagnosis helps in that it explains SO much and it is a comfort to know that IT ISN'T MY FAULT. It doesn't excuse bad behavior, but it gives you something to work with.