ds has just started year 7 and he’s basically me but worse

[ImDawn]

sorry this is probably going to be a bit all over the place because i genuinely don’t know what i’m asking.

ds is 11 and has just started year 7 and school have already contacted me so many times i’m starting to dread seeing their number come up. we’ve had a number of meetings already as well, which feels ridiculous when he’s only been there a few weeks. he’s been excluded from lessons, refuses to hand work in, walks out of class, swears when challenged, has been caught vaping with other boys and has had several detentions. he’s also had behaviour points for messing about, talking over teachers and refusing instructions. there was an incident last week where he was told to leave a lesson and then swore at the teacher and walked out.

i’m not going to say he’s some innocent little boy being picked on because he isn’t. some of his behaviour is awful and i’ve told him that. the vaping especially i was absolutely furious about. he’s 11 ffs. but this is where i’m struggling because he is basically me at that age. not just a little bit like me, he is me. except worse.

i was awful at school. i hated being told what to do, hated teachers who spoke to me like i was stupid and if i felt embarrassed in front of everyone i’d make it ten times worse rather than admit i was wrong. i was always being called lazy and disruptive and told i was capable of more. i stopped going properly when i was about 13/14 and eventually barely went at all. i left with hardly any qualifications. i’ve worked ever since so it’s not like i think my life is ruined because i didn’t stay in school, but i’ve never exactly had loads of choices either. i’ve done cleaning, warehouse work, admin bits, whatever was available. i’ve just been made redundant from my last job so i’m currently not working.

and i know what you’re probably thinking, that i’m projecting all of this onto him and tbh maybe i am. because when school tell me he’s been difficult i can see it. i KNOW he’s being difficult. but i also know what it feels like when you’ve already decided an adult thinks you’re stupid or badly behaved.

he came home the other day after being removed from a lesson. apparently the teacher told him to start some work, he didn’t understand it so started messing around. teacher told him to stop, he carried on, then refused when told again and eventually got told to leave. he swore. so yes, he behaved like a dick. i told him that. then he said to me “it doesn’t matter what i do they already think i’m a dick anyway”. and honestly that really got me because i remember feeling exactly like that. once i’d been labelled the difficult one, i thought there was no point trying because they were going to tell me off anyway. i’m scared he’s starting down that road already.

the school isn’t even awful, which makes this harder. one of the pastoral staff has been really nice to me and has phoned to talk things through rather than just having a go. another meeting they were actually trying to work out what would help him. one teacher told me he’s funny and bright but chooses to disrupt, another said when he actually does the work he’s perfectly capable. i understand why they’re fed up with him. if you’ve got 30 odd kids and one keeps refusing to do anything and getting the others laughing, i’d be fed up too. but everything seems to be behaviour, behaviour, behaviour. detention, behaviour point, phone call, another detention. we’ve had meeting after meeting and every time i come away thinking yes he needs to change but also what are we actually going to do differently this time?

he’s not like this all the time either. at home he can sit for hours doing things he actually likes. he knows everything there is to know about football. he can tell you who played for which team years ago but apparently his brain doesn’t work when it’s something from school. he’s also good with practical things. he helped his dad fix his bike the other week and concentrated and listened for ages. he likes cooking and will follow a recipe properly if he wants to make something. his football coach doesn’t seem to have any problems with him either. apparently he listens there. so it’s not that he physically can’t listen to an adult. it’s school. and i know how that sounds.

dp thinks i’m making too much of the fact that he’s like me. he says i’m looking at him and seeing myself and then giving him excuses i wouldn’t give another child. he said “you left school and you’ve spent your whole life struggling for money, is that really what you want for him?” which was horrible but i can’t pretend it didn’t make me think.

because no, i don’t want that for him. i don’t want him leaving school at 14 with nothing. but i also don’t want to spend the next five years watching him become more and more of a problem until everyone has decided he’s a lost cause. my mum thinks i’m doing the same thing. she remembers what i was like and says i’m trying to convince myself the school system was the problem for me, so now i’m doing the same with ds. she thinks if i take him out i’m just giving him permission to give up.

i’ve actually started looking into home education, which i never thought i’d say. not because i think it’s some amazing lifestyle, i just don’t know what else i’m supposed to do if school and him are already at war with each other. i’m not even sure i’d be any good at it. i’m not exactly qualified to teach year 7 maths. what happens with gcse’s? what happens when he’s 15 and wants a normal job? what if he just sits on the xbox all day? i’m at home now because of the redundancy so i could technically do it for the time being. dp works nights and sleeps a lot of the day so it would mostly be me dealing with it.

i’ve also looked at alternative provision but i don’t really know what i’m looking at. i don’t want him moved somewhere just because he’s badly behaved and then surrounded by even more kids who are struggling. he’s only just started secondary school. part of me thinks i’m completely mad even considering taking him out this early. then another part thinks if he’s already been removed from lessons, refusing work, walking out, swearing and vaping within a few weeks, what exactly am i waiting for?

dd is 7 and completely different. she loves school, gets her uniform ready the night before and cries if she’s ill and can’t go in. so it’s not like i’m against school full stop. it’s just ds. or maybe it’s me. i genuinely can’t work out which.

i don’t want people telling me he’s a misunderstood angel because he isn’t. he’s a pain in the arse sometimes and i tell him that. but i also don’t think “make him behave” is an answer because obviously i’ve tried that. school have tried that. we’ve had enough meetings about it now and detentions haven’t changed it. shouting hasn’t changed it. taking his phone away hasn’t changed it.

how do you know when you’re actually recognising that your child needs a different environment, and when you’re just projecting your own childhood onto them? because i hated school and left it early and i still don’t really like the whole system. and now i’ve got a boy sitting in front of me who is so much like i was that sometimes it honestly scares me. except he’s worse. and i don’t know if that means i understand him better than the school does or if it means i’m the worst person to be making this decision for him.

i see the usual ADHD posts coming up. Sure it’s a possibility but it’s also a possibility he’s a kid who’d rather play football than learn about quadratic equations. I used to be bored out of my mind in some lessons as I am sure a lot of kids are. I had certain lessons where I knew I could chat to my mates because the teacher let us mess about whereas in others I sat in silence.
I teach LOADS of kids with ADHD. none of them have ever sworn at me. Not one. I have been sworn at but by NT kids.
Whete did he get the vape from? What sort of language is being used in the home? What support is he getting from home in terms of getting organised and doing homework? Some kids really need help with the basics so they can get in a good routine. Do you have a copy of his timetable?

If she has ADHD she is not going to easily be able to flip into holding the whole structure of home education!! Plus OP has not had much education herself - (not to be mean OP but it is hard managing educational content even if not formal).

OP - look up AuDHD and PDA profile as well as ADHD. Also maybe look up dual exception. Both you and your child strike me (from one post admittedly) as hugely intelligent people who are managing very well against some big processing and executive function challenges.

As many others have said, your post screams ADHD.

my son has just started in Y9 and was diagnosed in June. His Y7 wasn’t quite as extreme as your sons but Y8 was pretty bad. We didn’t have the vaping and swearing but he was on an endless cycle of behaviour points, detentions, suspensions, going on report etc. He also had some bad injuries both years which meant he had to stop all sport which was a huge outlet for his energy aswell as being great for his self esteem and self regulation.

Stuff that he could cope with in primary was exacerbated by the new environment, the lack of sport, the strictness, and an early puberty.

Once they’re on that negative behaviour pathway it becomes very demoralising and overwhelming. I pushed and pushed for school to refer him for an ADHD assessment but they apparently couldn’t see any signs. The GP wouldn’t refer without schools support. So we ended up paying privately and he was diagnosed with severe combined type ADHD.

he started meds over the summer holidays and the change in him this term has been remarkable.

Your son is still so young and things can change for him. One thing that has been quite important with my son aswell has been finding a teacher who likes and understands him and is willing to advocate for him in school.

i would definitely speak to your SENCO at school. Even without a diagnosis they are obliged to put into place reasonable adjustments based on his needs - as an example you mentioned that he will sometimes get in trouble as he doesn’t know what he’s supposed to be doing in a lesson. My son has problems with processing a lot of verbal instructions at once. He would get in trouble as if he asked what they were supposed to be doing he would be told off for not listening, but if he didn’t ask he would get in trouble for not doing the correct work. So one of his adjustments now is the teachers taking more time to make sure he knows what the work is - so chunking instructions for him, writing them on the whiteboard or on a post-it for him, checking in after the task has started to check he knows the first step and what to do next etc.

The senco would be able to help you and him identify trigger points and work around them - for example does he find moving through the corridors between lessons very overwhelming and disregulating? If so maybe he can leave lessons 5 minutes early to get to the next lesson calmly and have a couple of minutes on his own to have a quick reset.

there are lots of easy things they can put in place that are very effective.

If you can get the GP to refer him ask for the Right to Choose (RTC) pathway. This is basically where there NHS pay private assessors to do the assessment rather than waiting years for the NHS. You can look to see the waiting list for various providers and choose one with a short wait. A lot of them can be done online and sometimes can be done in weeks.

Once you start looking into all of this you may notice a few traits in yourself….!

oh one other thing to add is that ‘like attracts like’. ADHDers really like each other as they can match energy and flip between topics and get each other. You might find he is therefore drawn to similar kids to himself at school, who often do have a bit of a ‘trouble maker’ reputation. This would change slightly if he was on meds as he wouldn’t be seeking the dopamine hits as much. But it can also just be useful to be aware of and you can have conversations along the lines of ‘I know Bob and Bill are really fun to play with at lunch but they’re probably not the best people to sit next to in lessons etc’

Good luck and do report back.

As others have said, talk to him about your experiences at school, and what you wish you had done differently.

I've taught a few students who sound a lot like your son. I got the best out of them when I checked in with them quickly and quietly once the work was set so they had a chance to ask any questions straight away. Obviously it's not always as easy as that depending on the needs of others in the class and the setup of the lesson, but is this something your son might respond to (as opposed to putting his hand up to ask a question in front of everyone)? It sounds like the teachers are really keen to work with you and your son to get the best out of him. Please let your son know that whilst I found students like him challenging, once we had found strategies that worked I genuinely enjoyed teaching them - they brought energy and personality to the class! So he shouldn't assume that he has and will always have a negative label.

I agree with this. It irritates me when people say “oh he’s really good at concentrating when it’s something that interests him” as if that is an excuse for switching off and messing about when it’s not his “special interest”. Newsflash - virtually every single person on the planet finds it easier to focus when the topic is of interest to them. All jobs have elements that are boring and mundane but need to be done - he will never hold down a job if he is allowed to make excuses to get out of the work he finds boring. Even “dream” jobs like professional footballer - he might find the gym work dull and repetitive, or dislike the diet he has to follow. He needs to learn to stop messing around just because it’s not his favourite subject, ADHD or no.

Please don't homeschool, as you refuse to use proper punctuation and clearly enjoy the fact your son has taken after you in so many dysfunctional ways. Your dislike of rules won't help him pass exams.

His "being so much like you" is only relevant insofar as your own parents failed to correct your behaviour around schooling, and how you can improve on that.

Your husband is right. Instead of wasting half an hour posting this, why aren't you spending your energy thinking of and implementing strict consequences at home for your son's appalling behaviour? and learning to use capital letters

Talk to the Senco department and insist on an assessment, although you may end up needing to go private on that. Before you rush to Home Ed wait and see what school can offer.

Also high school is a huge leap where masking fails. In primary they're with the same classmates and teacher and room all day. The transitions and lack of consistency in high school will really kick things off.

Does he listen to what you say at home, ie asking him to get ready as you're off out in 5 mins, he can't go out because Grandma is coming, he needs to tidy up his mess on the table before teatime? If not, then I doubt Home Education would be right.

I think I'd ask to speak to someone in the school yourselves in terms of what they can do for him, would he be better elsewhere or whether they think there are any traits which make it worth assessing if he has somethine like ADHD.

One thing he needs to understand is that he carries on like this, he will be excluded from school, obviously that affects his education (which maybe he doesn't care about), but also school is great from a social point of view and he won't have any friends or other to hang around with. And if this happens, they'll be consequences at home, he won't be allowed to do some of the things he currently enjoys, won't be allowed out to see the other children he's met - they will have to come to yours so you have an idea of what they're up to.

It does. Also why is your post so long? Do you have adhd too?

Your son is sinking, do get all the help you can.
Probably a bit of nature and nurture in this case. What does his dad say? Often with boys that age, dads are better at sorting them out.

Whether your ds has adhd or not he needs to learn to not be rude and disruptive. I pity his classmates and teachers.

How can Op HE if she herself has not been educated past 13. I can't see that being a realistic option.

When you home educate your children, you don't have to become the expert. For many people the whole point is to enable self guided learning.

What nonsense. You can’t diagnose off the post and suggesting medication without exploring other treatments is really poor. I’m guessing you are not a medical professional?

I feel sorry for the teachers.

You need to look up rejection sensitive dysphoria and education. I had the same thing as a teen. If I didn’t understand I would become a dick rather than ask for help as I didn’t want to appear vulnerable or like I didn’t just know what everybody around seemed to grasp so easily. So this also is fed into by poor executive function . You can’t grasp the steps + don’t understand the work = play up to avoid the peers realising you are a thicky dumb dumb. Obviously I know now that I’m not thick but then? I hated high school and went from a decent student to a twat of the highest order. I also walked out at 14 and never went back…but I still managed to get a degree and a masters later despite zero GCSEs. Turns out I have ADHD and very likely autistic ( two of my adult kids have ASD and adhd diagnosed as children/teens. Two of my grandkids are in the pathway as well).

in your shoes I’d be looking an ASD/adhd diagnosis with medication if suitable. Medication it’s me the mental clarity and silence to be able to follow instructions without the horrific clanging distractions running around my brain 24/7.

How is he getting money for vapes at 11? Aside from the behaviour stuff, you need to be cracking down on that as vapes are not harm free re longer term health consequences.

It also doesn’t sound like you are particularly well qualified re being able to support home education. I’d be trying desperately to keep him in school.

Keep him in school. Start enforcing some real world home consequences. Removal of devices, not playing football etc. It can be done it’s just wether you want to implement those boundaries. He has to understand behaviour isn’t a choice at school anymore. You’re not after perfection, you want him to fix up and not be so disruptive etc. It’s not a huge ask. You know yourself this is going to be good for him in the long term.

What do you take away when all they have left are the clothes on their back and the behaviour hasn't changed?
A question posed to me from a Youth Counsellor.

blimey 😂

i haven’t actually taken him out of school have i, i’ve said i’m looking into it because i’m worried about him. i’m not sat here filling in the forms to deregister him this morning.

and trust me there are consequences at home. he loses his phone, he gets grounded, we have arguments about his behaviour, his dad has spoken to him plenty of times. it’s not like we’ve just shrugged and said oh well that’s our ds being ds. none of it seems to be making much difference at the moment which is why i’m asking for advice.

i don’t particularly enjoy the fact he’s like me either. that’s rather the point of the post. i know exactly how unpleasant i could be at his age and i’m worried about him going down the same road. i’m not proud of having left school with hardly any qualifications and i’ve said that myself.

i also don’t think my parents simply failed to correct my behaviour. they tried. grounding me didn’t make me want to go to school, it just meant i was miserable at home as well as miserable at school. i’m not saying consequences shouldn’t exist, i’m saying we’ve tried them and i’m trying to work out what else might actually help.

as for the capital letters, i’m typing on my phone on a forum, not applying for a job. i’m sure my punctuation will survive.

i haven’t decided to homeschool him. i’m asking whether anyone has been in a similar position and how they worked out what was best for their child. if the answer is that i need to keep him in school and work more closely with them then fine, but i don’t think i’m a terrible mother for admitting i’m worried and asking the question.

What does that mean?

Definitely look at assessing for ADHD. I’m surprised school haven’t already mentioned it. It’s a big change going from juniors/primary to secondary. A lot of SEN children can manage ok in mainstream juniors or primary. But often have to look at alternative provision for secondary.

Unfortunately both parents don’t seem to have stepped out and sorted things in primary school. If you don’t do so asap it’s only going to get worse.

"what if he just sits on the xbox all day?"

Effective parenting would mean there wasn't an xbox to sit on. I'm a teacher (secondary) and the reluctance of parents to discipline with consequences (whilst expecting us to) has become noticeably more commonplace over the last 15 or so years.

If you were capable of providing your son with a beneficial level of home education, you would have done it for yourself already. Sounds harsh but you don’t appear to have educated yourself since school to try and improve your life outcomes. You also seem to struggle with authority.

Give your child a chance to be better than you were. You’re predetermining his outcomes when it doesn’t have to be this way. Teach him resilience at home so he believes he can do hard things that are outside of his natural interests and can grow to be a functioning and useful member of society.

At the moment it sounds like he’s losing time on his x box or phone. What would happen if you took them away completely and he earned the time by having a good day (no swearing at staff, being sent out)? So it’s not an expectation he has these things it’s only when he’s earnt it.