ds has just started year 7 and he’s basically me but worse

[ImDawn]

sorry this is probably going to be a bit all over the place because i genuinely don’t know what i’m asking.

ds is 11 and has just started year 7 and school have already contacted me so many times i’m starting to dread seeing their number come up. we’ve had a number of meetings already as well, which feels ridiculous when he’s only been there a few weeks. he’s been excluded from lessons, refuses to hand work in, walks out of class, swears when challenged, has been caught vaping with other boys and has had several detentions. he’s also had behaviour points for messing about, talking over teachers and refusing instructions. there was an incident last week where he was told to leave a lesson and then swore at the teacher and walked out.

i’m not going to say he’s some innocent little boy being picked on because he isn’t. some of his behaviour is awful and i’ve told him that. the vaping especially i was absolutely furious about. he’s 11 ffs. but this is where i’m struggling because he is basically me at that age. not just a little bit like me, he is me. except worse.

i was awful at school. i hated being told what to do, hated teachers who spoke to me like i was stupid and if i felt embarrassed in front of everyone i’d make it ten times worse rather than admit i was wrong. i was always being called lazy and disruptive and told i was capable of more. i stopped going properly when i was about 13/14 and eventually barely went at all. i left with hardly any qualifications. i’ve worked ever since so it’s not like i think my life is ruined because i didn’t stay in school, but i’ve never exactly had loads of choices either. i’ve done cleaning, warehouse work, admin bits, whatever was available. i’ve just been made redundant from my last job so i’m currently not working.

and i know what you’re probably thinking, that i’m projecting all of this onto him and tbh maybe i am. because when school tell me he’s been difficult i can see it. i KNOW he’s being difficult. but i also know what it feels like when you’ve already decided an adult thinks you’re stupid or badly behaved.

he came home the other day after being removed from a lesson. apparently the teacher told him to start some work, he didn’t understand it so started messing around. teacher told him to stop, he carried on, then refused when told again and eventually got told to leave. he swore. so yes, he behaved like a dick. i told him that. then he said to me “it doesn’t matter what i do they already think i’m a dick anyway”. and honestly that really got me because i remember feeling exactly like that. once i’d been labelled the difficult one, i thought there was no point trying because they were going to tell me off anyway. i’m scared he’s starting down that road already.

the school isn’t even awful, which makes this harder. one of the pastoral staff has been really nice to me and has phoned to talk things through rather than just having a go. another meeting they were actually trying to work out what would help him. one teacher told me he’s funny and bright but chooses to disrupt, another said when he actually does the work he’s perfectly capable. i understand why they’re fed up with him. if you’ve got 30 odd kids and one keeps refusing to do anything and getting the others laughing, i’d be fed up too. but everything seems to be behaviour, behaviour, behaviour. detention, behaviour point, phone call, another detention. we’ve had meeting after meeting and every time i come away thinking yes he needs to change but also what are we actually going to do differently this time?

he’s not like this all the time either. at home he can sit for hours doing things he actually likes. he knows everything there is to know about football. he can tell you who played for which team years ago but apparently his brain doesn’t work when it’s something from school. he’s also good with practical things. he helped his dad fix his bike the other week and concentrated and listened for ages. he likes cooking and will follow a recipe properly if he wants to make something. his football coach doesn’t seem to have any problems with him either. apparently he listens there. so it’s not that he physically can’t listen to an adult. it’s school. and i know how that sounds.

dp thinks i’m making too much of the fact that he’s like me. he says i’m looking at him and seeing myself and then giving him excuses i wouldn’t give another child. he said “you left school and you’ve spent your whole life struggling for money, is that really what you want for him?” which was horrible but i can’t pretend it didn’t make me think.

because no, i don’t want that for him. i don’t want him leaving school at 14 with nothing. but i also don’t want to spend the next five years watching him become more and more of a problem until everyone has decided he’s a lost cause. my mum thinks i’m doing the same thing. she remembers what i was like and says i’m trying to convince myself the school system was the problem for me, so now i’m doing the same with ds. she thinks if i take him out i’m just giving him permission to give up.

i’ve actually started looking into home education, which i never thought i’d say. not because i think it’s some amazing lifestyle, i just don’t know what else i’m supposed to do if school and him are already at war with each other. i’m not even sure i’d be any good at it. i’m not exactly qualified to teach year 7 maths. what happens with gcse’s? what happens when he’s 15 and wants a normal job? what if he just sits on the xbox all day? i’m at home now because of the redundancy so i could technically do it for the time being. dp works nights and sleeps a lot of the day so it would mostly be me dealing with it.

i’ve also looked at alternative provision but i don’t really know what i’m looking at. i don’t want him moved somewhere just because he’s badly behaved and then surrounded by even more kids who are struggling. he’s only just started secondary school. part of me thinks i’m completely mad even considering taking him out this early. then another part thinks if he’s already been removed from lessons, refusing work, walking out, swearing and vaping within a few weeks, what exactly am i waiting for?

dd is 7 and completely different. she loves school, gets her uniform ready the night before and cries if she’s ill and can’t go in. so it’s not like i’m against school full stop. it’s just ds. or maybe it’s me. i genuinely can’t work out which.

i don’t want people telling me he’s a misunderstood angel because he isn’t. he’s a pain in the arse sometimes and i tell him that. but i also don’t think “make him behave” is an answer because obviously i’ve tried that. school have tried that. we’ve had enough meetings about it now and detentions haven’t changed it. shouting hasn’t changed it. taking his phone away hasn’t changed it.

how do you know when you’re actually recognising that your child needs a different environment, and when you’re just projecting your own childhood onto them? because i hated school and left it early and i still don’t really like the whole system. and now i’ve got a boy sitting in front of me who is so much like i was that sometimes it honestly scares me. except he’s worse. and i don’t know if that means i understand him better than the school does or if it means i’m the worst person to be making this decision for him.

Secondary teacher here. Ask for the school to put him on a positive report, which will encourage teachers to find the good, no matter how small. This will hopefully boost your son’s confidence slightly - it sounds like he has already written himself off in terms of following expectations and working.
talk to the PE department - if he’s into his football, find or request a staff member with a similar interest who could act as a mentor for him. Regular check ins with a supportive staff member may help to encourage him in the right way. Ideally this would be his tutor, but it works well with somebody who shares interests.
I would be hammering down hard at home that if he is failing to follow expectations at school, he looses things as a consequence at home. Grounding, phone taken away, or no football practice - yes it’s a good outlet for him, but he doesn’t get bonuses if he can’t follow basic rules.
AP schools are tough - if he ends up on a permanent exclusion, this will be what is offered. Schools can do managed moves to other local schools, but it’s not guaranteed and I promise you, most of them are similar enough that if he can’t knuckle down where he is, it isn’t promising for others. Having said that, some managed moves do provide the fresh start the student needs, so it can work.
Talk to the senco, see what their opinion is about adhd etc - but that doesn’t excuse his behaviour and he needs to know that. He’s making wrong choices and year 7 is where they are still young children - if this continues you are looking at a v troubled and angry teen.
Main thing is communicate with the school, it is not on them, it is your sons poor decision making. How they and you support him is crucial. I hope he can see and understand v soon how important his choices are. And no, don’t compare to you, he is his own person and just because grounding etc didn’t work for you, doesn’t mean it won’t for him. Main consequence - he looses his phone!! That one is huge for students - and often has the right effect!!

Maybe change the view he has of teachers / authority?

Teachers are there to teach. He is there to learn. He doesn't have to like them. They don't have to like him. They aren't there to make him look stupid or clever. Sometimes the way they explain stuff works for some and not others- that doesn't make him stupid if he doesn't get it and it doesn't make the teacher a bad teacher either. I'd reinforce to him that he isn't always going to get it, and sometimes he needs to ask at the time for help, and sometimes he'll need to ask someone else (eg you, a friend /, another teacher). Tell him teachers are people, they aren't perfect but he is there to learn from them and he can't do that if he is arguing / testing their limits.

The thing is he was probably fond of those teachers in primary that got him, and he also got them. In secondary, the relationship is different. There are loads of teachers and loads of students. He is maybe seeking understanding and a boost to his confidence etc but chances are he just won't get that. So he needs a way to learn despite that.

@PingPong91: it's allowable for emphasis, I would've said, but I may be wrong.

I'm also not sniping, though obviously it looks like that. It's clear the OP will stubbornly continue to write childishly because she has a problem with other people telling her anything; her son has exactly the same trait, so until she fixes that about herself I'd say he'll be vaping, swearing and causing problems.

Hello there. I'm a secondary teacher. Your posts are really articulate and you're clearly an intelligent person. Sorry, hope that doesn't sound patronising.

Autism and Pathological Demand Avoidance. It's not a standard 'label' but it is one we use at our school, particularly when a kid is racking up the old behaviour points and consequences have limited (if any) impact.

I'm off sick at the moment and have extreme brain fog, so I might leave something out from the following. Our strategies for Autism and PDA work roughly like this...

Get them assessed, while 'on the pathway' they are treated as if they do have it.

Every lesson has to explicitly be a fresh start and we follow a 'warm greeting' approach in corridors and around school to build a relationship.

Instructions are presented as options with choices via an individual check in. Not 'you must' but 'this is what we want to achieve, which one of these tasks would help you to achieve it?' What we've realised with PDA is that the kids aren't unwilling to work but their autonomy is very important to them and if they're unable to exercise that, then it all goes to shit pretty quickly.

If (or when) they end up in detention/s we don't start by telling them what they did wrong. Instead, we ask them to tell us what happened and think about how it made them feel, we then encourage them to think about how it made other people feel. It's at this point that their autism becomes really apparent. Obviously, the restorative conversation only works where the teacher / staff have already built some sort of relationship. It can take a while to get past shrugs and apparent indifference but the response in those situations can't be to revert to 'You're a dick,' as that just alienates the child further, so we try and go with something like 'I'm sorry you had a bad day, must be a bit upsetting / annoying.' What we're trying to do is model regulation by showing a kid how it's done in the school setting.

Finally, swearing is just words. There's a difference between swearing at someone and cussing your way out of a room. For the latter, things have already gone south by that point and it's just a symptom of the dysregulation. These are not usually choices the child is making and so we don't sanction meltdowns. For the former, see above re restorative conversations because punishing a child who swears at you isn't going to get them to like you / stop swearing at you any time soon.

Where we will come down like a ton of bricks is on vaping. He would get suspended for that. But generally the PDA kids respond this because we're saying this is a red line and you can trust us that this red line is for your own benefit.

Sorry, that's a bit of a wall of text but I totally get what you mean when you're saying 'He is me.' I'm in my late 50s now, diagnosed with autism and PDA traits. My school career was a shit show and my early adult life didn't get off to the smoothest of starts. I also worked a bunch of quite low paying jobs until I finally got myself to uni in my 40s. After that, and my diagnosis, I knew that I wanted to train to be a teacher so that other kids didn't have to go through what I did at school. And I can handle the sweariest most ridiculous lads.

So cute.

She was using lower case. You called it out. She didn't comply. Does it always bother you so much when your demands aren't complied with?

i probably haven’t explained properly what we’ve tried because i didn’t want the op to be even longer than it was.

he has consequences at home. he loses his phone, gets grounded and his dad has spoken to him plenty of times about how he’s behaving. we’ve sat down and talked to him calmly as well as getting cross with him. school have had meetings with us and we’ve tried following their advice. i’m not saying we’ve done everything perfectly but it’s not as though we’ve just left him to get on with it.

i agree that we need to be joined up with the school and i’m happy to work with them. the problem is that so far it feels like we’re all having the same conversations and then a few days later there’s another phone call about something else. i’m asking what else we can try because what we’re currently doing doesn’t seem to be changing much.

i do take your point about projecting my own experience onto him. it’s something i’ve been thinking about since dp said the same thing. i don’t tell ds it’s fine to behave like this because i did, and i’ve told him that leaving school early made things harder for me. but i can’t pretend my own experience doesn’t affect how i see things either.

and i completely agree it’s unfair on the other children when he’s disrupting lessons. i’m not asking anyone to accept that. i just think there must be a way to hold him responsible for his behaviour while also finding out why he’s struggling so much with the transition to secondary school. maybe that starts with looking at his learning and whether there’s something we’re missing, as another poster suggested.

i’m not expecting the school to fix everything for us. i just don’t want us to keep repeating the same things and hoping he’ll suddenly change.

OP you are really minimising his relatively poor behaviour through primary school and im guessing the reason you have this issue now is that you didnt take that behaviour seriously enough as an issue in the primary school years as you basically didnt think it was bad enough.

So he hasnt had enough consequences so now he's pushing harder to try and find where the boundary is. You need to really tackle this head on and taking him out of school isn't going to help him learn how to deal with doing things he doesn't want to do. Thats life

He won’t respond well to teachers who want to be his friend.
He won’t respond well to teachers who want to punish him.
I do think you should let him be him and not decide he is a repeat of yourself.
I do think he would respond well to a teacher who is just factual. And leaves the choice about how things turn out to him. To not be entirely bothered either way. That will get his attention.

I think you are right that once labelled trouble, it is very hard to remove the label.
I also cringe at the school and behaviour points. Some children will see it as a kudos to acquire as many as possible. And to be seen as trouble.

I was like you OP. Bright, but became trouble. I won’t go into the why’s of that.

The best teacher I ever had was one who had transferred from a public school. Could read children really well. He gave out some test results. Mine were awful. As he handed them out he said ‘ you would fail’ and said no more. I replied ‘ oh I will be alright’. He said ‘no, not based on the test result, you would fail’. And showed no further interest, there was no discussion and pouring over how I could do better if I wanted to.
His words, hit me like a brick. Or his lack of being unduly bothered. What he cleverly did was tell me that my lack of work would impact on me. Without saying that exactly. Nobody else would care. But I would. He knew I would. I was too confident I could get results without doing the work.
I went away and worked and worked and worked. And got a B in his subject. I went away from his class thinking ‘ I better do some work now’. It was truly life changing.

The teacher or teachers he needs are those who can cleverly point out to him the impact of not trying at school and that it will land on him. Nobody else. But not dwell on it. Let him think it through. No lectures, he will have had enough of those.
Especially when doing and not doing homework, tests etc. If he does not hand work in, up to him. His results will reflect it. And leave it at that.
The lack of fuss will attract his attention.

Tell the school this.

I was very successful at school and I also wouldn't have a random person on the internet 'telling' me how to type/comment online.

I think there is a suggestion that pushing for an assessment for additional needs or working on behaviour changes with DS are alternatives. Both can occur in tandem. I would:
*Discuss with school and/or GP how to move forward for assessments for ADHD or related issues.
*Engage with the school. Discuss the issues & behaviour strategies with them. Engage constructively.
*Discuss with DS how he responds in difficult situations and specifically what alternative behaviour choices he should make. For example, when he is unsure how to do work, he should ask the teacher for guidance or have a go not mess about. You need to talk through specific scenarios and likely triggers and discuss how he should handle them going forward. Focus on what he should do not just on what he shouldn't. He can make different choices.

I would be consistent in reinforcing that nothing justifies swearing at staff and blatant disrespect. There are some things that as a family you think are totally unacceptable & there are no excuses for. "You may have been upset or frustrated, but you do not ..."
*Model the behaviour you want. I know it is hard - im not perfect at this - no one is. Dont swear (he isnt mature enough to know when it is/ isnt appropriate yet). Model handling difficult situations calmly. Conmunicate your respect teachers and value their role.
*Continue to encourage activities he is good at (sport etc.). Look for any opportunities to offer positive praise, particularly if school related.

Not an expert. Appreciate it is hard. However, I would try the above for a good amount of time before home education. If home education doesnt go well i think you are going to struggle to get him back to school.

Ordinarily I would say "put your foot down" etc., but I wonder if what he needs is encouragement rather than discipline. You say he is bright and can engage when he is interested in something. Has anyone actually sat down and told him that he is clever and funny? Have you talked to him about what he wants from life? Not just jobs but in general? I think he needs to realise he is capable and bright and he can do anything he sets his mind to. It won't happen overnight, but maybe a different approach could help, especially if you can get his teachers on board? He may be a square peg being forced into a round hole, and in many aspects of life, that's something that you just have to deal with, but if he believes he has potential he may try to reach it.

i do take your point about primary and maybe i should have pushed harder at the time, i honestly don’t know. when his teacher spoke to me i did take it seriously and we dealt with things at home, but because he was still getting on ok academically and wasn’t having the level of problems he’s having now i suppose i didn’t realise how much it might escalate.

i’m not saying he was perfect and suddenly turned into a different child in september. he was always chatty, could be disruptive and didn’t like being told off. i just don’t think any of us expected it to get to this point so quickly.

he does have consequences at home. i’m not sure i agree that this is simply because he hasn’t had enough of them, because we’ve tried taking things away and grounding him and it hasn’t stopped the behaviour. obviously that doesn’t mean we give up on consequences, but i don’t think making them harsher and harsher is necessarily going to get to the bottom of it either.

i haven’t taken him out of school and i’m not saying i definitely will. i’m asking questions because i’m worried about where this is heading. i know he needs to learn to do things he doesn’t want to do, we all do, and i’m not expecting him to spend his life only doing things he enjoys.

i just want to work out how to get through to him before this becomes his normal way of dealing with everything. if that means being firmer and working more closely with school then i’ll do that, i’m not opposed to it. i just don’t think admitting i’m worried and asking whether there’s another approach means i’m refusing to tackle it.

Well think about why you were like that and what might have made it better. Talk to him, get him to write down his feelings and try and work out their cause and how he could do things differently next time. Reflections if he’s willing - what happened, why, what next?

Tell him to ask when he doesn’t understand. That it’s ok and not embarrassing to not understand. That that’s the point of school.

It sounds like you and he base/based your reactions on insecurity and shame. So find out how to build him up and make him realise it’s ok to get shit wrong in lessons. And that teachers aren’t assuming you’re stupid or badly behaved… you ARE ACTING stupid and badly behaved. If you stop doing that they’ll stop assessing you as such. They will judge by continued behaviour… if he starts being good they will soon see him as good.

Get him counselling if you can because it’s all about thought patterns and a belief that you’re being persecuted when actually you’re being a shit student so you’re being treated as your behaviour demands. Get him to talk through his feelings and behaviours. What sets him off, why, why does he think he reacts like X. Get him to compute why he’s doing things.

You can’t home educate Op… kindly, you don’t have any education yourself with which to teach him.

Also check there isn’t something at the core going on. Is he struggling with reading comprehension or something about the way instructions are given, is he missing a random chunk of maths. Why does he have shame and insecurity of being embarrassed in front of others in class… what makes him think people think he’s stupid just weeks in. Get him a tutor if he needs one.

Hi OP,

Have a look at these links and see if anything looks useful. Regarding the vaping, my school has an attached copper who will come in and bollock (kindly but firmly) students going down that path.

Parenting as a PDAer - PDA Society https://share.google/n1ZDcw9Ugm78HnJ0y

What is Declarative Language? {Book Review} - Steph's Two Girls https://share.google/ovB9Hce8h4UXeTKtg

PANDA as a way in - PDA Society https://share.google/548w0lfsVEzZzkvcq

has phoned to talk things through rather than just having a go

This is really concerning, that the teachers are phoning you up and having a "go" at you.

Id be asking them

It isn't any good you phoning up and "having a go at me" im not at school in class when this is happening - we need to work together ,not you phoning up blaming me, as that is what it feels like right now.

How can we move forward working together?
What is it you want to happen?
How do you think we can achieve that together?

Whilst teachers may feel at the end of their tether in the first term, its not going to help matter if the parent feels like they are having a go

Getting him a tutor outside of school would surely bring his confidence levels up and make him more self assured without resorting to bad behaviour to to make himself feel ok in front of his mates

The crucial thing to keep in mind is that academic issues tend to have "can't" and "won't" aspects.

I have a 13 year old girl with PDA and (for example) she won't read unless forced or highly motivated, but it's partly because she can't understand motivations of fictional characters. But she can read.

There are "can't" and "won't" aspects of social challenges too and children can be highly intelligent but struggle socially and this is often most obvious following a setting change.

As a Mum of a son with diagnosed Pathological Demand Aviodance at 13yrs I see a lot of similarities. My son is youngest of 7. All my others went through school with zero issues. I dreaded school phoning me. I removed him from school completely once he was diagnosed. No way was a school going to get £35,000 extra per year when he spent more time in photocopy room than class. He was home schooled & honestly flourished.

@CrazybigtoePointing things out isn't demanding. Why did you think they were the same?

The fact it's a systematic and deliberate thing she's doing - and pointlessly refusing to stop doing - was interesting to me, that's all. Especially as she's expecting other people to spend time carefully constructing posts in order to help her situation.

But if the OP wanted 47 replies about ADHD referrals and how rules, grammar-related or otherwise, don't apply to her and her son because they're somehow special and different then she's been very successful, so fair play.

Teacher 30 years v rough schools

this behaviour ie v v concerning seek a referral to CAMHS urgently

have a small but consistent punishment everytime a teacher contact you

have a meeting snd mske a home school pact to support each

“it doesn’t matter what i do they already think i’m a dick anyway”. and honestly that really got me because i remember feeling exactly like that. once i’d been labelled the difficult one, i thought there was no point trying because they were going to tell me off anyway. i’m scared he’s starting down that road already.

This hit me. He needs to think beyond 'me, me, me' and his impact on other children and the teachers.

Basically how dare he disrupt the education of so many children?

I would not go for home ed. That would just be a big reward for him. Tell him school is non negotiable, he has to go.

Ask him what might help him, he may have some ideas.

You and your dc scream adhd with some odd perhaps chucked in. (As a parent of hellish adhers if they dont take their meds)

Gives a wave and whispers i call.my teen dc's dicks too. (Goes hides behind a rock)

Op get on about adhd diagnosis. Private if you can afford.
Apply for ehcp as he may need another setting