ds has just started year 7 and he’s basically me but worse

[ImDawn]

sorry this is probably going to be a bit all over the place because i genuinely don’t know what i’m asking.

ds is 11 and has just started year 7 and school have already contacted me so many times i’m starting to dread seeing their number come up. we’ve had a number of meetings already as well, which feels ridiculous when he’s only been there a few weeks. he’s been excluded from lessons, refuses to hand work in, walks out of class, swears when challenged, has been caught vaping with other boys and has had several detentions. he’s also had behaviour points for messing about, talking over teachers and refusing instructions. there was an incident last week where he was told to leave a lesson and then swore at the teacher and walked out.

i’m not going to say he’s some innocent little boy being picked on because he isn’t. some of his behaviour is awful and i’ve told him that. the vaping especially i was absolutely furious about. he’s 11 ffs. but this is where i’m struggling because he is basically me at that age. not just a little bit like me, he is me. except worse.

i was awful at school. i hated being told what to do, hated teachers who spoke to me like i was stupid and if i felt embarrassed in front of everyone i’d make it ten times worse rather than admit i was wrong. i was always being called lazy and disruptive and told i was capable of more. i stopped going properly when i was about 13/14 and eventually barely went at all. i left with hardly any qualifications. i’ve worked ever since so it’s not like i think my life is ruined because i didn’t stay in school, but i’ve never exactly had loads of choices either. i’ve done cleaning, warehouse work, admin bits, whatever was available. i’ve just been made redundant from my last job so i’m currently not working.

and i know what you’re probably thinking, that i’m projecting all of this onto him and tbh maybe i am. because when school tell me he’s been difficult i can see it. i KNOW he’s being difficult. but i also know what it feels like when you’ve already decided an adult thinks you’re stupid or badly behaved.

he came home the other day after being removed from a lesson. apparently the teacher told him to start some work, he didn’t understand it so started messing around. teacher told him to stop, he carried on, then refused when told again and eventually got told to leave. he swore. so yes, he behaved like a dick. i told him that. then he said to me “it doesn’t matter what i do they already think i’m a dick anyway”. and honestly that really got me because i remember feeling exactly like that. once i’d been labelled the difficult one, i thought there was no point trying because they were going to tell me off anyway. i’m scared he’s starting down that road already.

the school isn’t even awful, which makes this harder. one of the pastoral staff has been really nice to me and has phoned to talk things through rather than just having a go. another meeting they were actually trying to work out what would help him. one teacher told me he’s funny and bright but chooses to disrupt, another said when he actually does the work he’s perfectly capable. i understand why they’re fed up with him. if you’ve got 30 odd kids and one keeps refusing to do anything and getting the others laughing, i’d be fed up too. but everything seems to be behaviour, behaviour, behaviour. detention, behaviour point, phone call, another detention. we’ve had meeting after meeting and every time i come away thinking yes he needs to change but also what are we actually going to do differently this time?

he’s not like this all the time either. at home he can sit for hours doing things he actually likes. he knows everything there is to know about football. he can tell you who played for which team years ago but apparently his brain doesn’t work when it’s something from school. he’s also good with practical things. he helped his dad fix his bike the other week and concentrated and listened for ages. he likes cooking and will follow a recipe properly if he wants to make something. his football coach doesn’t seem to have any problems with him either. apparently he listens there. so it’s not that he physically can’t listen to an adult. it’s school. and i know how that sounds.

dp thinks i’m making too much of the fact that he’s like me. he says i’m looking at him and seeing myself and then giving him excuses i wouldn’t give another child. he said “you left school and you’ve spent your whole life struggling for money, is that really what you want for him?” which was horrible but i can’t pretend it didn’t make me think.

because no, i don’t want that for him. i don’t want him leaving school at 14 with nothing. but i also don’t want to spend the next five years watching him become more and more of a problem until everyone has decided he’s a lost cause. my mum thinks i’m doing the same thing. she remembers what i was like and says i’m trying to convince myself the school system was the problem for me, so now i’m doing the same with ds. she thinks if i take him out i’m just giving him permission to give up.

i’ve actually started looking into home education, which i never thought i’d say. not because i think it’s some amazing lifestyle, i just don’t know what else i’m supposed to do if school and him are already at war with each other. i’m not even sure i’d be any good at it. i’m not exactly qualified to teach year 7 maths. what happens with gcse’s? what happens when he’s 15 and wants a normal job? what if he just sits on the xbox all day? i’m at home now because of the redundancy so i could technically do it for the time being. dp works nights and sleeps a lot of the day so it would mostly be me dealing with it.

i’ve also looked at alternative provision but i don’t really know what i’m looking at. i don’t want him moved somewhere just because he’s badly behaved and then surrounded by even more kids who are struggling. he’s only just started secondary school. part of me thinks i’m completely mad even considering taking him out this early. then another part thinks if he’s already been removed from lessons, refusing work, walking out, swearing and vaping within a few weeks, what exactly am i waiting for?

dd is 7 and completely different. she loves school, gets her uniform ready the night before and cries if she’s ill and can’t go in. so it’s not like i’m against school full stop. it’s just ds. or maybe it’s me. i genuinely can’t work out which.

i don’t want people telling me he’s a misunderstood angel because he isn’t. he’s a pain in the arse sometimes and i tell him that. but i also don’t think “make him behave” is an answer because obviously i’ve tried that. school have tried that. we’ve had enough meetings about it now and detentions haven’t changed it. shouting hasn’t changed it. taking his phone away hasn’t changed it.

how do you know when you’re actually recognising that your child needs a different environment, and when you’re just projecting your own childhood onto them? because i hated school and left it early and i still don’t really like the whole system. and now i’ve got a boy sitting in front of me who is so much like i was that sometimes it honestly scares me. except he’s worse. and i don’t know if that means i understand him better than the school does or if it means i’m the worst person to be making this decision for him.

@sashh "I would not go for home ed. That would just be a big reward for him."

So is going to school a punishment? If home ed "rewards" him by making him happier than school, it's an option worth considering. He shouldn't have to spend 30 hours a week in an environment which makes him miserable just for the sake of it.

It's highly unlikely he'll receive any education at home though.

I see no reason to think that. His mum loves him and seems to understand him well. If she decides home ed is worth a try, she's likely to make a success of it.

He doesn't seem to be engaging well with the education on offer at school, that's for sure. An alternative must be worth exploring.

My daughter was like this in year 7 and 8. Did all of those things and it went on for nearly 3 years. It was extremely stressful for everyone. She was diagnosed ADHD towards the end of year 9. Things are much better now. Not perfect but so much better. The school now listen and are more supportive and meds have been helpful.
Other than that, negative interactions, sanctions and punishments have rarely worked for us and just made things worse really. If you can get the school to look at positive encouragement in a more coaching style, setting him some targets that he can feel proud to accomplish, this might work better but it’s hard to get them on board with anything other than throwing out detention after detention (which I feel is detrimental and doesn’t work for these kids).

'pointlessly refusing to stop doing'

Ok then.

The best thing to do is find him a job as soon as he can legally work- because he is not going to see the benefit of school unless he experiences the alternative. He (and you) were being spoken to as if you were stupid because you were acting stupidly- it is a legitimate response.
Although you say your life wasn't ruined you have no career, no consistent CV and currently no work- most people would interpret that as pretty much ruined, would your life have been better if you had stayed at school and got some qualifications- almost certainly.
You need to intervene if you don't want history to repeat itself, as you say DS is even worse than you were so his outcome is likely to be even worse it you don't do something.

Of course not. School is the neutral option. He needs to learn that his behaviour does not get him rewards.

Loving someone doesn't make you equipped to educate them to an adequate standard. Add in the fact that OP left school at 14 and it's a recipe for disaster, unless she plans to bring in someone to do the educating at home.

I'm surprised that you're so confused. Your son is just like you were at school. Do what would have worked for you

Also get him diagnosed PDQ and medicated

But what if he didn’t understand the task because he was messing around while it was being explained? Why should he get 121 instructions as a reward for disruptive behaviour which probably stopped others from listening properly as well? I agree that there needs to be some kind of reset but I think it needs to start with him committing to concentrating and listening to the teacher and trying his hardest, and then if he still doesn’t understand he gets the teacher’s time to help him break the task down.

Everyone saying ‘he has ADHD’ - it really makes no difference to give him a label.

He still has to live life, get an education and stop vaping. I hate this diagnostic culture to be frank; I think it’s damaging and used as a means to justify circumstances and problems that we struggle to solve or exist with.

Ok some will be helped with medication.
He’s not swearing or vaping because he has ADHD. And if he does have ADHD, he still needs to stop swearing and vaping; and he still needs to learn to stick at something he doesn’t like; like school or work. That’s life whether you have a medical diagnosis of whatever or not.

You could also warn him. 47% of new prison inmates have no formal qualifications. Only 9% have 5 or more GCSEs. Meanwhile in the outside world, 84% of people have 5 or more GCSEs. 18% have none in the wider population.

Can you see the association with those stats? It paints an ugly picture and he really needs to understand that he’s unlikely to even see your level of success if he doesn’t buckle under. It’s a different world to when you dropped out at 14 and he’s male which is a different kettle of fish.

It means you help them access information/tools that teach them what they need to know rather than developing the materials and teaching them what you know or understand.

Possibly by paying for expertise from a tutor or online portal, or by helping them learn how to research things and use the copious tools that are available for free. Also encouraging them to be active learners by being curious and working things out for themselves.

Explaining why someone's brain works differently or why they might struggle in some areas is not giving someone a label. It's extremely helpful in most cases for people to be more self aware as to why they struggle with certain behaviours and therefore are able to get the right support, treatment, or learn techniques to help themselves. You can't just tell an ADHD person to stop being so impulsive or hyperactive, and they just do it. I'm not saying that people shouldn't take responsibility for their actions but in order to change those behaviours it needs a hell of a lot more intervention that simply telling them to stop.

I disagree. I have known a number of home educating parents with low educational attainment whose children did just fine. Upthread, I gave a detailed example of a child I knew well.

The skills required to home educate are not the same as the skills required to teach in a classroom or to tutor.

I'm pleased for the child you know. I know a few children who were "homeschooled" and achieved nothing at all. They would have fared much better had they stayed in the school system.

Okay... by the same token, I know some children who went through the school system and achieved nothing at all. Some of them have emerged with their mental health and confidence destroyed. They would have fared much better if they had been home educated.

The OP's son does not seem on track to do well within the school system. She's sensible to explore an alternative.

Could you please leave me alone?

I would honestly bet my bottom that both of you have ADHD. It's highly heritable and tends to lead to the exact path you describe for yourself as well as the patterns you mention for him now. And the general way that you write and keep going back and forth and trying to cover/consider all the angles is very recognisable. (I have ADHD and ADHD kids). (This is nothing to do with punctuation BTW, I think that is a red herring and doesn't matter.)

Teachers are probably being nicer about him than they were about you because more is understood now that pupils who are disruptive aren't always just being arses for fun, many of them will have underlying difficulties or needs which are not being met. You probably did as well, the difference is a generation ago, that was not widely recognised.

FWIW home educating when you both have ADHD is a special kind of madness and please don't take this the wrong way - it will not go well. I'm not saying no ADHD parent ever home educates their ADHD child - I know a couple who do in fact manage this brilliantly!! But they have done it because they had a deep passion and love for the idea of home ed, and because the lifestyle suits their approach to life and parenting style generally, not as a reactionary impulsive decision against trouble with school. Jumping straight to extremes like putting him in a specialist provision or taking him out of school entirely when faced with a problem you can't immediately solve is also very ADHD, which is not a criticism, it's just an observation. It's likely he could thrive within mainstream if you can get the right support in place, or at least survive and get basic qualifications up to a point he can switch to a more vocational/practical setting pursuing a skill or trade that he is interested in.

Look into assessment. Look into medication. Medication is highly likely to reduce or stop dopamine-seeking activities like vaping, which is sometimes even a sort of unconscious attempt to self-medicate (can you control his access to money and places where he could buy these? That will also be vv influential. Do not be above going into local shops with his picture and telling the vendors clearly that he is underage and NOT to sell to him.)

It also tends to massively reduce conflict between pupils and teachers, or other pupils because (IME and in the way I've seen it described by doctors/researchers) it basically allows for a pause between a very fast, immediate, almost automatic-feeling emotional reaction, and the bit of the brain which allows you to stop and consider consequences and hence will clamp brakes onto that fast, reactionary thing before you put your foot in it.

With ADHD the emotional reaction is often so fast that the words are out of the mouth or the hands are already doing the thing before the more sensible part even realises anything is happening, let alone has chance to consider whether or not it is a good idea. Medication seems to slow the first part down a bit, or perhaps it speeds the second part up. I don't think they actually know how it works, but either way it seems like the two bits come back into synchrony again so that it works as it does for most of us.

My 8yo actually explained having "two parts of his brain" almost exactly like this to his brother this morning. It is not an explanation I have given to him - he actually wondered whether the empathetic part was his heart, not his brain. I could have wept, a year ago he was not on medication and he never, EVER stopped to think about a consequence - now he has the choice, and like all children, sometimes he doesn't apply the brakes in time, or makes the wrong choice, but he has a chance to try to use them now, whereas before I believe he genuinely did not. It feels like he's on a level playing field with others now.

My kid is ADHD and carrot works much better for him than stick. Going slightly against the grain here, but if he's acting out because he thinks everyone hates him and already thinks he's a disaster and then he goes home and exactly the same thing happens there, you're just reinforcing the self loathing that's making him act like this in the first place.
If my kid is punished at school I'll reinforce the message at home "Well, they're quite right, you do need to stop mucking around in class." But he doesn't get punished twice for the same misdeed. Once is enough.
In your shoes, I'd try small consistent rewards. Not necessarily money/gifts - in fact, anything that builds connection between him and you/his dad is better. My kid is obsessed with board games, so in my house this would be "If you have a whole day with no negative behaviour points, we'll play a board game when you get home." But it could be "we'll go out for hot chocolate" or "we'll have ice cream sundae for pudding" or "we'll work on your Lego set together for half an hour" or even "we'll go and have a kick around in the park". Sticker charts don't tend to work for ADHD (and he's too old for them really). But small, immediate targets and rewards do. Give him the opportunity to have an easy win and then praise him to the hills when he does it. Let him see that you believe in him.
The other thing that's important is to make sure he knows you're not the enemy, you're on his team. "How can we fix this together?" not "Step out of line again and you'll be in big trouble."
It might also be worth talking to his primary school. Did they notice any signs of ADHD? How did they manage his behaviour? When my kid acted up on the induction day, the secondary SENCO got straight in touch with the primary SENCO and asked what strategies they used/what worked.
What works best for my kid at school is having a consistent adult he trusts. His primary teacher used to schedule a weekly conversation where he could share any concerns/grievances with her and he knew he'd be listened to and respected. By about halfway through year 6 it became obvious this wasn't needed any more so they wound it down.
Good luck.

And if he doesn’t manage to achieve those things? Surely not getting those rewards is then another punishment?

I think you should take him out of school now, to be honest. The other children deserve to be safe at school. I fear his bad behaviour will get even worse when he discovers that he can do what he wants to girls.