Shiri Bibas and children

[whatwouldyoudoifisangoutofkey]

I don't understand how it's known how they died.
I think speculating on how a person died is against MN talk guidelines but does anyone know what % of certainty we can have in the reports ?

This was my first thought.
Just give them their prisoners and get those last hostages home. I cannot imagine the torment of the remaining families.

Thanks OP. I have come back because you tagged me and i was notified. Tried to message you but got an auto reply that private messaging has been suspended.

Sadly, I think any of these threads are poison, with such entrenched positions I have no hope for peace or security going forward.

I hold all the children caught up.in this horrendous situation in my thoughts and prayers, along with the families that love them.

Hamas initiated the attack on 7th October. In that attack, they killed over a thousand people, including mothers and children in their own homes, some in incredibly brutal ways.
If Hamas then claims that a mother and children who they kidnapped in that very same attack died from an Israeli missile, then anyone with any sense should be sceptical at best.
Hamas have shown who they are over and over again. They demonstrated on 7th October exactly how they would treat Israeli women and children. No one should be surprised at this. Anyone taking Hamas' claims at face value is naive at best.

You can't get past page one of this thread without coming across disparaging remarks aimed at the Israeli government and repeating false or inaccurate information deliberately intended to deceive and cause others distress.

This weekend, the usual contributors and a few new ones are intent on derailing this thread and causing offence. Yet, MN moderators did not remove any of their remarks but chose to remove comments from posters, including myself, who objected to the derailing and ghoulishness of this thread.

It is very clear to me that there is a bias by MN moderators to allow the spread of disinformation when it relates to the government of Israel and the spread of propaganda initiated by Hamas.

And before anyone asks, I don’t have a hidden agenda.

I don’t like people using a discussion about the Bibas family to score points and use MN as a platform to further their prejudices and biases; it's a revolting spectacle.

Message to the MN Moderators: please do not remove my comment when I haven't named or shamed any particular contributor on this thread and haven't broken your talk guidelines. Thank you.

I agree

Maybe we could all agree to keep to the title of the thread ?!!!

A mother and her children have lost their lives.

many of us here on Mumsnet are mothers - the clue is in the name of the website - tho of course it has moved on since it began.

I repeat my previous reply:

RIP Shiri, Ariel and Kfir Bibas

💯

Netanyahu, the Cowardly Cynic, Used and Abandoned the Bibas Family
There is no limit to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's cynicism regarding the Bibas family. Earlier this month, his wife posted pictures from the U.S. House of Representatives on Instagram: She's standing by a big poster of Ariel Bibas on display there. During her previous visit, she wore an orange outfit as a tribute to the Bibas children. They're redheads, she's in orange – get it? They have to be brought home.
Haaretz February 20

……..

Trump Should Listen to the Bibas Family, Not to Bibi Netanyahu
While the Bibas family urges the government to prioritize the release of remaining hostages, Netanyahu uses their suffering to push for war - putting Israelis still in captivity at even greater risk.
Haaretz February 22

Have the official causes of death been externally verified?

I hope not. The thought of their tiny bodies being passed back and forth for ‘examination’ between various agencies is awful and disrespectful.

The Israelis said that they had past findings on for external verification. I assumed it meant photos and files etc. I agree with your post but, let them rest now x

I read one article that they were passing information to the US,( the article didn’t note any other ) they didn’t say what that information was but I highly doubt it was their bodies.

Not sure the US can be deemed impartial

Although who can really

I agree the US are not impartial…which means will we ever really know
Of note - with the Israeli Govn calling many charities terrorists because they are trying to help Palestinians they won’t be going to them….so who then as they are the ones most countries do trust.

I agree I don't think it will every be truly clarified or believed

What happens in such cases is usually that data is shared. Autopsies can be recorded, pathology findings documented and analysed on computer systems, etc. While there have been serious concerns around pathology processes in many countries, including Israel, the UK and the US, these have been addressed in most areas, and I can't imagine Kfir, Ariel and Shiri being treated with anything other than the highest respect, with the same applying to any other returning hostages for whom such processes may be needed.

I said on this thread I don’t like people using a discussion about the Bibas family to score points.

And yet here we are again, reading your disparaging remarks about the American and Israeli governments and questioning the validity of the report produced by the director of the Abu Kabir National Institute of Forensic Medicine regarding the murder of Shiri, Ariel, and Kfir Bibas.

Dr Chen Kugel said, 'There is no evidence that Shiri, Ariel and Kfir died in an explosion', refuting Hamas's claims that they were killed in an Israeli airstrike.

If you had a shred of empathy for the people of Israel and the Lifshitz and Bibas Silberman families, you would keep your unsubstantiated judgemental remarks regarding the validity of the report to yourself.

May I also remind you that Yarden Bibas, the husband of Shiri and the father of Ariel and Kfir, said that he demanded the world be told what happened to his family.

So, if the Lifshitz and Bibas Silberman families believe the authenticity of the forensic report, let it stand.

The funerals of Shiri, Ariel, and Kfir are on Wednesday; let's hope you refrain from making any further snide remarks, show some respect, let them rest in peace and stop using them as pawns in a war of words against the Israeli government.

And do I have to remind you that if Hamas had not kidnapped Shiri, Ariel and Kfir on the 7th of October, then they would still be alive, enjoying life to the full with their father, Yarden.

Before you all shout me down!

The thread's question was, 'I don't understand how it's known how they died. Does anyone know what % of certainty we can have in the reports?

Scirocco has now answered the question in detail to the best of anyone's knowledge, so can we let it lie and end this horrible thread?

Invoking harmful conspiracy theories is against MN talk guidelines.

Thank you for your respectful answer and your empathy regarding the deaths of Shiri, Ariel and Kfir.

@GentleScroller I agree with you 100%. There's no legitimate reason for casting doubt on what happened.

@GentleScroller a reminder

Mumsnet talk guidelines

• No personal attacks
• No posts that break the law, including hate speech of any kind
• No trolling, misleading or deliberately inflammatory behaviour
• No trollhunting
• No spamming
• No multiple accounts

We'd appreciate it if you could use the same courtesy when posting messages on Talk as you would use when speaking to someone face to face.
We will also delete any posts that we think are just seriously unpleasant.
https://www.mumsnet.com/i/netiquette

If posters have a view that something is unsubstantiated they are entitled to express that view just as you are to disagree with them .
It's not necessary to accuse them of being snide and using the Bibi family as pawns in a war of words. Nor to imply that they are "Invoking harmful conspiracy theories "

if you want this horrible thread to end I'd advise you don't post on it.

The thread could have ended yesterday at 13.49 with @OlderGlaswegianLivingInDevon last words
RIP Shiri, Ariel and Kfir Bibas

but no, A few hours elapse and @Thisandthatandthensome thinks it's time to quote your view that others are "repeating false or inaccurate information deliberately intended to deceive and cause others distress."And so on.
The entire quoted post does nothing but accuse people of bias, derailing, of posting to cause distress, of the " ghoulishness of this thread "
It contributes nothing new, offers nothing other than anger and seems to be very little to do with the tragedy of these deaths.

I'm sorry that I started this thread( I've said this 3 times now )
I've asked MN to delete it, but they've chosen not to.

Please out of respect to the Bibi family can we end on the words used previously
RIP Shiri, Ariel and Kfir Bibas

Look, I'm genuinely upset. Saying, "Sorry you started this thread", is a start, but you've clearly contributed to the escalation of this situation, and then you act surprised when people react negatively.

It's the inconsistency that's really bothering me. You criticise so-called "disparaging remarks" while actively participating in them. And the whole "defence of the Bibas family" angle? That feels disingenuous. You brought their extremely sensitive tragedy into a public forum, and now you're acting like you're somehow protecting them?

You've essentially created a space where the very kind of divisive and hurtful comments you claim to dislike are flourishing. You've dismissed anyone who disagrees with you. That's just double standards.

Here's the thing: I believe the Bibas family deserves privacy and peace. I didn't drag their painful situation into this kind of debate. I think you've turned their suffering into a spectacle by mistake, but then you have the nerve to question my respect for them.

Okay, let's try to step back for a moment. I understand you're suggesting I reflect on my own behaviour. And you're right; everyone involved in this thread must consider their contributions, including yours.

It seems we're both feeling frustrated and misunderstood. I acknowledge that I've expressed my frustration strongly; perhaps that hasn't been helpful.
Perhaps, instead of focusing on accusations, we could try to understand each other's perspectives. It's clear we both care about the Bibas family, so let us just leave it at that.

I repeat:

Maybe we could all agree to keep to the title of the thread ?!!!

A mother and her children have lost their lives.

many of us here on Mumsnet are mothers - the clue is in the name of the website - tho of course it has moved on since it began.

I repeat my previous reply:

RIP Shiri, Ariel and Kfir Bibas

@Scirocco posted after my / our queries on how the assessment would be managed and independently verified. Which is important
This query was answered polity by @Scirocco

Your post is uncalled for