Shiri Bibas and children

[whatwouldyoudoifisangoutofkey]

I don't understand how it's known how they died.
I think speculating on how a person died is against MN talk guidelines but does anyone know what % of certainty we can have in the reports ?

Every single thread about the Bibas family is getting trolled.
It’s like the tearing down of hostage posters all over again.

I said on another thread that this board brings out the most contemptible people on Mumsnet and I stand by that.

None of the Israeli hostages have been killed by airstrikes. Three were killed after being mistaken for Hamas terrorists by the IDF and the rest were murdered by their captors (e.g. the ones who were held as human shields for Yahya Sinwar and then executed when they were no longer needed). We know that Hamas have lied about hostages being alive when they were dead and dead when they were alive. We know they lied about Shiri Bibas being in that first coffin. We know they have forced hostages to be filmed as if they have died in an airstrike.

Hamas propaganda is almost laughably shameless but what is truly disturbing about it is the willingness of the media to parrot their narrative without any investigation of their claims and the willingness of Western people to swallow and repeat blatant lies because they would rather look stupid but righteous than acknowledge their own glee at Jewish people being treated sadistically.

I do wonder if its a rival group to hamas?
Surely there's still some level of power struggles within like in many places, the apparent timing of their death (during the first ceasefire which maybe the group disagreed with) and apparent inability of hamas to track them down during the hostage exchange when they did return the other children would fit with that.
Not sure if there is others angling for power, but the fact the bodies were recovered hints to more organisation than purely being a civilian psychopath, but doesn't seem to align with hamas's behaviour throughout.

It's vile, isn't it? Exactly that.

@whatwouldyoudoifisangoutofkey One single comment was removed by MNHQ. And in my opinion, there is entrenched bias among MN mods anyway; I have experienced their widespread refusal to remove overt, blatant ableist comments directed at me (clearly breaking talk guidelines) where elsewhere comments were removed for incredibly minor breaches. The moderation is far from infallible. It's notable, actually, that the majority of posts critiquing and challenging those who seek to derail threads about the Bibas family have not been removed even in the face of a moderation team that is not unbiased.

I quoted multiple comments , there have been several deletions of posts .
Not all of them were yours.

@whatwouldyoudoifisangoutofkey None of my comments on this thread have been deleted. Only one comment by someone supporting Jewish people has been deleted.

None of that changes the core issue, which is that no thread about the Bibas family is allowed to exist without calculated derailment. It's impressive how few pro Jewish comments are deleted considering the fact that the moderators are not exactly promoting a warmly pro Jewish environment here on Mumsnet (I'd say, quite the opposite in terms of the overall environment on this board).

What's this to do with The Bibas family?

You encourage a poster to derail and I've noted you made considerable effort to derail another thread. Why so much effort derailing, do you not think The Bibas family be allowed some thoughts and sadness for a few days uninterrupted by derailing. There are SO MANY OTHER THREADS. Isn't it insensitive and frankly tacky to derail anything about The Bibas Family. Why do you persist and encourage others. What's the motivation for this? Why not just start a thread or several threads talking about what you want to discuss? You just click.on the +add post button at the bottom and then start one.

@Thisandthatandthensome Exactly. I can't imagine what causes someone to be so set on derailing threads which are supposed to focus on the deaths of, above all (not to deny the importance of Shiri too, but I think most people are aware that the little boys are the reason why the Bibas case is so prominent and well known), a ten month old baby and a four year old young child.

Or rather, I can imagine it but I think spelling it out may garner a deletion.

It is very important to some posters on Mumsnet that Kfir, Ariel and Shiri Bibas not be acknowledged or talked about. That any thread about them be derailed.

Why?

Why do they feel threatened by a thread expressing sorry at the manner in which a family were kidnapped and spent their final time. Expressing horror at the way their bodies were paraded like trophies whilst people clapped and cheered as if at a party.

Can the not just scroll by and comment on any of the hundreds of other threads? It's very strange.

I think if a mother and two babies were kidnapped and murdered in the UK, there would be threads on Mumsnet about how horrible and how sad that event was.

And probably if it happened in another country from which we often hear news: if it was in the news that that had happened in America, in France, in Germany, in Italy, in New Zealand... I have so often seen threads on Mumsnet where the murders of a mother and her children have been spoken of with such empathy and sorrow.

I have never before seen the repeated derailment that has occurred with the threads about Shiri, Ariel and Kfir Bibas.

So I can only think it is because they were kidnapped from Israel and murdered for being Jewish. Victims of a pogrom. And some people do not want that to be spoken about.

@verysmellyjelly I quoted the posts to illustrate that @Baital was being attacked.
But of course, if there were genuine concern that the focus should be on this poor family, you would not be continuing this back and forth about challenging v attack and whose posts were deleted.

What’s upset me a lot is seeing that last photo of the mum clinging on to her babies and then seeing laughing movies on news posts about the deaths on Facebook. I also heard cheering when they showed the moment the coffins were paraded on the news. What kind of person laughs and cheers at the death of a child?

@verysmellyjelly I'm sure you're aware that I don't often post on this section of MN.
Can you link to these numerous threads that you are referring to where there is this derailing?

I’m afraid you clearly haven’t been reading many MN threads if you’ve never seen extensive derailment before.
A lot start out as one thing and end up as something completely different altogether.
People constantly derail.
Sometimes the conversation is interesting, sometimes annoying, but on the whole derailments are really very normal.

In fact I really shouldn’t be posting this to you as these constant conversations about derailment are constantly derailing.
Thankyou @whatwouldyoudoifisangoutofkey for trying to keep things on track.

@whatwouldyoudoifisangoutofkey I'm not sure why you are implying my concern isn't genuine. I think my comments make eminently clear that it is. Correcting you when you imply, wrongly, that more comments were deleted than actually were or that my comments were deleted certainly doesn't preclude genuine concern. I am simply correcting misinformation so that it doesn't stand unchallenged.

@Stirabout I have seen plenty of derailment on Mumsnet, but never an equivalent attempt to derail threads about innocent victims of kidnap and murder. I'm surprised you're implying that this does, in fact, exist. I have read many threads about murder victims on this site and I've never seen it.

Perhaps you're right, though, and I just happened to miss it.

A lot start out as one thing and end up as something completely different altogether.
People constantly derail.
Sometimes the conversation is interesting, sometimes annoying, but on the whole derailments are really very normal.

True. It's not specific to threads about the Bibas family.

You're correct that my post implied a deleted comment could have been yours.
My point is that this back and forth between yourself and me about whether another poster was being attacked , whether those attacks were vitriolic and what importance could be attached to them breaking MN guidelines is nothing to do with the Bibas family .
You have expressed very strongly , several times that the discussion should focus on them and that comments not concerning them, or introducing anything else are evidence of an "agenda".
But you seem keen to prolong a discussion about deleted comments and that doesn't, to me, fit with your criticism of derailment.

Do you expect us to believe you don't know what a post mortems is?
What are the reports you want know the percentage of certainty of? Are they not coming from a reliable source?

I've already said that I think I was insensitive to start thus thread .
I don't want to make it worse by going into the detail that would explain why I thought a post mortem would be difficult to carry out.
Arttheclown answered my question in about the fifth post on this thread .

I think after the constant questioning of Israel and how they have dealt with things eg statements made after Oct 7th/ sexual assault not being taken seriously/ the return of hostages both dead and alive that Israel will be very aware they have to get this right.

Given it's only been a matter of days/ hours since the correct bodies were returned and there is very obvious signs when a clear cause of death is arrived at then I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

They have said they have handed over and worked with international agencies (I assume so they aren't called into question)

It just disturbs me that your first questions about this event is about percentages and cause of death. That leads me to believe you neither care nor are bothered about the level of trauma this has caused in Israel (and elsewhere in the world)

They don't owe you an explanation. This line of faux questioning makes people upset and angry. Both time and empathy are needed.

See below