Shiri Bibas and children

[whatwouldyoudoifisangoutofkey]

I don't understand how it's known how they died.
I think speculating on how a person died is against MN talk guidelines but does anyone know what % of certainty we can have in the reports ?

@Baital I look forward to your subsequent post championing the cause. They are available (the names) as I have seen them online.
I am just wondering why you are using your energy to point out where posters are going wrong rather than rectifying it?

I wish I hadn't started this thread .
I wanted to understand how we knew how these poor people died.
It was insensitive of me to ask for a view about what certainty we could attach to reporting .
That wasn't meant to imply that everything said by Israel could not be believed.
Actually I think the it was insensitive to post about this family full stop .
But the vitriolic posts directed at @Baital are not warranted.
Nor are the accusations that Baital's posts are derailing the thread .
I started the thread wanting clarity on 2 related points .
@ArtTheClown was able to answer my questions just before 9am in the fifth post .
They did so calmly, giving factual information.
Not by throwing insults and attacks around .

@whatwouldyoudoifisangoutofkey Challenging Baital's derailing attempts isn't vitriolic. I haven't seen any vitriol directed at her.

@whatwouldyoudoifisangoutofkey We'll have to agree to disagree that those are attacks. I think that if someone is part of an ongoing, serious derailment campaign across multiple threads (not one single thread about the Bibas family has been permitted to actually focus on them) then they should expect pushback.

For example, that poster themselves brought up the DRC. It isn't vitriolic or an attack for me to ask them why they haven't been making threads about children in the DRC, or to point out that this is a clear derailment tactic.

Thanks OP.

It's quite bizarre to claim that I am part of a 'campaign'. I usually avoid this type of thread because this is exactly the sort of 'organised campaign' that responds.

They have succeeded in chasing me away. I hope that is satisfactory. It doesn't do anything to change my opinion, confirms it rather.

@Baital will see you on your new threads.

This. Shared postmortem evidence is usually taken as proof. Do Israel need to provide more proof than that? Usually, that's sufficient.

People demanded proof of rape during October 7th, not believing the women, witnesses or forensic evidence.

I'm sure the soldiers of the idf would gladly have a soldier to soldier battle. Sadly, Hamas Brigades take off their uniforms, change into civvies and hide amongst their families, happily wanted them martyred to their cause.

Came up on trending. I seldom look at these threads because of the overwhelming anti Israeli stance on MN.
No surprise it's more whataboutery.

Mm

@Stirabout yes, that case. Where the Israelis actually took a great risk with their own lives to carry out a targetted assasination, rather than an airstrike that had collatoral deaths, but that wasn't good enough either.

I think those 3 are all the same story from different outlets. I understand they did on that occasion pose to arrest militants and were widely condemned for doing so.

The IDF are predominantly in uniform as soldiers are. The hamas Brigades only appear in uniform during handover celebrations during ceasefire.

There is a difference even if you choose not to see it.

These a three links to articles about one specific attack, not about IDF generally operating in civilian clothing in war zones.

‘The Israeli authorities said the three men (the targets) had been involved in planning an attack similar to the one launched by the Palestinian militant group Hamas on 7 October that killed 1,140 people, according to Israeli data, and sparked the latest war in Gaza’

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/30/israel-forces-disguised-women-medics-storm-hospital-jenin-west-bank

Indeed they were criticised heavily for that case, same story with 3 different news outlets reporting it.

Hamas rarely appear to wear uniform, keeping it neatly pressed for performative PR when returning bodies of babies, their mum or elderly peace keepers. Or when they present certificates or gift bags to released hostages. 🤔

@Baital don't ever let anyone chase you away, you have as much right to comment on any of these threads as anyone else, nobody holds a monopoly on them, remember that

That’s a good point about it being a targeted attack.

Sometimes it's not about "right" but about empathy.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should

It’s against the Geneva convention to attack the sick so they shouldn’t be bombing hospitals anyway.

There should never ever be an air strike on a hospital…..Ever!
The sick, ie that’s the ones in the hospital, should also not be attacked, they are protected.
Its also against the GC to disguise yourself

Rules of war and engagement

Youcant seriously think it’s ok to make up these excuses for what happened in that hospital!

Yes.
They we’re caught on camera footage which was still working at the hospital.
It is the same attack as you note.

There should never ever be an air strike on a hospital…..Ever!

That's not actually true though. Hospitals can lose their protected status if used for "acts harmful to the enemy" and be considered a legitimate target.
There are also tolerances for collatoral damage, ie civilian casualties. It's unpleasant, but it does mean that any civilian deaths aren't automatically war crimes.

A lot of people seem to misunderstand this, and assume that Israel is behaving illegally when it is not. They actually do quite complex calculations prior to air strikes, for instance, factoring in likely value of the target vs likely collatoral damage, and legal teams are consulted before the strike gets okayed.

@verysmellyjelly MN obviously thought there was something wrong with the comments directed at @Baital and that they broke talk guidelines .
They've deleted my post because in giving examples of those comments I judged vitriolic , I've quoted posts that were against guidelines .

There was a comment on the thread about the potential for illegal activity that posters supported Hamas.
Im guessing that’s why it was taken down as I asked for that comment to be looked at.

Please stop the attacks
My comments on that thread related to the return of the deceased by Hamas.
I did not derail the thread.
People may have disagreed with my posts, as is everyone’s right, but I did not derail it and trolling is not allowed