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Conflict in the Middle East

Shiri Bibas and children

196 replies

whatwouldyoudoifisangoutofkey · 22/02/2025 08:20

I don't understand how it's known how they died.
I think speculating on how a person died is against MN talk guidelines but does anyone know what % of certainty we can have in the reports ?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Stirabout · 24/02/2025 20:53

whatwouldyoudoifisangoutofkey · 24/02/2025 17:38

@GentleScroller a reminder

Mumsnet talk guidelines

  • No personal attacks
  • No posts that break the law, including hate speech of any kind
  • No trolling, misleading or deliberately inflammatory behaviour
  • No trollhunting
  • No spamming
  • No multiple accounts

We'd appreciate it if you could use the same courtesy when posting messages on Talk as you would use when speaking to someone face to face.
We will also delete any posts that we think are just seriously unpleasant.
https://www.mumsnet.com/i/netiquette

If posters have a view that something is unsubstantiated they are entitled to express that view just as you are to disagree with them .
It's not necessary to accuse them of being snide and using the Bibi family as pawns in a war of words. Nor to imply that they are "Invoking harmful conspiracy theories "

if you want this horrible thread to end I'd advise you don't post on it.

The thread could have ended yesterday at 13.49 with @OlderGlaswegianLivingInDevon last words
RIP Shiri, Ariel and Kfir Bibas

but no, A few hours elapse and @Thisandthatandthensome thinks it's time to quote your view that others are "repeating false or inaccurate information deliberately intended to deceive and cause others distress."And so on.
The entire quoted post does nothing but accuse people of bias, derailing, of posting to cause distress, of the " ghoulishness of this thread "
It contributes nothing new, offers nothing other than anger and seems to be very little to do with the tragedy of these deaths.

I'm sorry that I started this thread( I've said this 3 times now )
I've asked MN to delete it, but they've chosen not to.

Please out of respect to the Bibi family can we end on the words used previously
RIP Shiri, Ariel and Kfir Bibas

Edited

Thankyou for posting this, it is really appreciated

stomachamelon · 24/02/2025 22:18

@GentleScroller well said.

@Stirabout I see you didn't take being 'Chased off the thread' to heart.

GentleScroller · 25/02/2025 10:36

Stirabout · 24/02/2025 20:47

@Scirocco posted after my / our queries on how the assessment would be managed and independently verified. Which is important
This query was answered polity by @Scirocco

Your post is uncalled for

Okay, let's be clear:

  • Response Timing: I understand your point about response times, but there are no established rules on this forum that dictate a specific order for replies. Group discussions naturally involve varied response patterns. Therefore, I don't agree that my response was inappropriate simply because another comment preceded it.
  • Perceived Accusations: I acknowledge that some of my previous wording may have been interpreted as accusatory, and I value maintaining a respectful atmosphere.
  • Trolling Accusation: However, I must address your claim that others were "trolling" you. That is inaccurate. Everyone, including myself, is engaging with you because you initiated the discussion. My current response is a direct example of this engagement. I am simply responding to your comment directed at me.
OlderGlaswegianLivingInDevon · 25/02/2025 11:36

Please take the bickering and point scoring and so on and so forth elsewhere, we don't need ' clarity ' of someone's post.

Yarden Bibas is burying his family tomorrow.

Stirabout · 25/02/2025 12:15

GentleScroller · 25/02/2025 10:36

Okay, let's be clear:

  • Response Timing: I understand your point about response times, but there are no established rules on this forum that dictate a specific order for replies. Group discussions naturally involve varied response patterns. Therefore, I don't agree that my response was inappropriate simply because another comment preceded it.
  • Perceived Accusations: I acknowledge that some of my previous wording may have been interpreted as accusatory, and I value maintaining a respectful atmosphere.
  • Trolling Accusation: However, I must address your claim that others were "trolling" you. That is inaccurate. Everyone, including myself, is engaging with you because you initiated the discussion. My current response is a direct example of this engagement. I am simply responding to your comment directed at me.

Assume you meant this for another poster
My discussion with another mumsnetter was re how independent verification could be dealt with, which has been answered appropriately by another poster.
So the query has been dealt with.
Of note I haven’t made any accusations !

quantumbutterfly · 25/02/2025 12:17

OlderGlaswegianLivingInDevon · 25/02/2025 11:36

Please take the bickering and point scoring and so on and so forth elsewhere, we don't need ' clarity ' of someone's post.

Yarden Bibas is burying his family tomorrow.

💔

EllaDisenchanted · 26/02/2025 06:07

Live stream of the Bibas family funeral procession.

Crowds line streets to pay respects to Bibas family as funeral procession begins
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-february-26-2025/#liveblog-entry-3491287

israelilefty · 26/02/2025 07:34

Tens of thousands of people are lining the streets (it's a long journey down to the south) and, movingly, an honour guard of a good 100 motorbikes flying flags is following the police and the hearses. It feels like this is a state funeral - in the total absence of the state.

The most frequent word on signs people are holding is 'Sorry'. For Israelis this is not just about mourning the horrific death of the Bibas family and offering comfort after unimaginable cruelty: it's also a deep expression of feelings of abandonment: abandonment of the kibbutzim in the Gaza border by the army who only got to Nir Oz in the afternoon, after a quarter of the population of the kibbutz were killed or taken hostage. Abandonment of the hostages by the government who did not prioritise returning even the youngest children. Abandonment of the civilian population by a government who has not yet returned all the hostages and has refused to take responsibility or to establish a state inquiry.

As the sister of Yarden Bibas wrote this morning: “Through the window, I see today a broken nation.” There is a deep feeling of an open wound, which will constantly be reopened until the last hostage comes home and the government takes responsibility.

israelilefty · 26/02/2025 08:44

For people who want to understand the collective mood, here is Lior Ben Ami's op-ed from Ynet this morning, Israel's most popular news site. Source: https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra14274351, google translated with some corrections by me.

Another chance to bow our collective heads

Today we grieve for the murder of two children and a mother who was left to protect them alone, and in some place we grieve for ourselves. For our priorities that were wrong. For not understanding that we had to fight for such a basic value: children's lives. For trusting too much in those who were supposed to do what was right.

Today, as if given another chance to bow our collective heads, the people will once again stand on the side of the road, sighing wordlessly in the cold air. They will show respect, they will feel pain.

Kfir, Ariel and Shiri Bibas have unwillingly become a symbol of broken humanity. A symbol of boundless cruelty. But also a sad reflection for us. For not being there for them. Not when they were attacked and kidnapped; not when it was clear that freeing four- and nine-month-old toddlers is urgent, now, before any other mission, before revenge; And not when it was necessary to stand as a determined people against a prime minister who had drifted far from the good of his country, and who has been broadcasting from a lonely island of politics and slogans since then.

So today we grieve for the murder of two children and a mother who was left to protect them alone, and in some place we grieve for ourselves. For our priorities that were wrong. For not understanding that we had to fight for such a basic value, children's lives. For trusting too much in those who were supposed to do what was right. Kfir, Ariel and Shiri must be our "never again".

Somehow, in the sanctity of today, we will not be able to resist turning a glance to the side again. To see if he [Bibi Netanyahu] is still there. He jumped to show empathy for the pain of his people. Like children who never stop waiting and being disappointed

The truth? No matter how our prime minister chooses to act, whether he makes a video address to the nation or does nothing, it will not change.

One way or another, the word "cynical" will be mentioned. And a dismissive hand will be waved. And not for nothing. The man who made his own choices at crossroads determining his people's fate. The one who preferred to stay in a luxury hotel in Washington when an entire nation was shocked by the condition of the returned hostages. The one who repairs a window at the price of a community center. The one who to this day acts as if Nir Oz is somewhere near a river in Africa - he is the last person who should tell us "a turbulent day is expected tomorrow." Or give us a look like someone who is shocked. Come on, as they say.

He was once the king of populism. The "top personality" of politics. Like somebody who promised aliens on live TV, Netanyahu promised "Iran" and "security" and then "total victory" and "just one more step." And he knew how to say what he wanted. He said "you are sour," he said "we are not interested in you," he said "super tanker," and we applauded like seals.

Today there is someone here, devoid of trust, who sweats to fit in but fails. Who recycles statements that once worked like "negotiation instead of just giving," and so on, only to discover it no longer works. Just like his displays of shock.
He is the last person worthy of holding photos of the Bibas family in his hands and crying out. Certainly not at the expense of the pain of the family. He's the one who led us to our disasters and pain so he shouldn't be waving them about.

We're also fed up with this trick of his, by the way. Responsible for the greatest disaster in our history, yet complaining; dragging out the legal proceedings against him, yet whining; sabotaging negotiations for the hostages, yet accusing; an entire campaign to avoid a political plan, an alternative government to Hamas, and then expressing shock at ceremonies held by an organisation [Hamas] that he – not the military – failed to blow away. To return to fighting under this man would be to return to a dead end.

"To my father's funeral - if they return his body from Gaza," tweeted Boaz, son of the late Aryeh (Zalman) Zelmanovich, aged 86, "will be invited only those government ministers who came to offer condolences during shiva or spoke with me during the last 506 days will be invited." Here is the list, he continued, and then - not a single name appeared on the list.

This will be, among other things, Netanyahu's legacy. Zero empathy and identification. Zero connection to the people. This is the reason why even if they [ministers, public officials] stand today with their people at the roadsides, shedding tears, we still won't feel that they are with us.

whisperofpeace · 26/02/2025 09:40

🧡🧡🧡 thank you for sharing @israelilefty

I know it must be a terribly difficult day today, praying for peace and healing for all, especially to Yarden.

When you have a moment, I would really appreciate if you could udpdate us please on the status of the ceasefire and the release of the remaining hostages. There is so much conflicting information online and it's hard to decipher what is actually happening, Thank you.

israelilefty · 26/02/2025 10:55

whisperofpeace · 26/02/2025 09:40

🧡🧡🧡 thank you for sharing @israelilefty

I know it must be a terribly difficult day today, praying for peace and healing for all, especially to Yarden.

When you have a moment, I would really appreciate if you could udpdate us please on the status of the ceasefire and the release of the remaining hostages. There is so much conflicting information online and it's hard to decipher what is actually happening, Thank you.

I would happily update you if our government would update us... We are all concerned for the continuation of the deal.

63 hostages remain in Gaza; the remaining living hostages are those men classified as 'soldiers' by Hamas, even when few of them actually were serving as soldiers at the time. There are also 3 foreign citizens from Thailand, Nepal and Tanzania. Of the remaining hostages, I believe 22 are believed to be alive. In 16 or 17 cases, there is recent proof of life via returning hostages (though this is not necessarily proof that others are not alive - since some hostages have been kept in solitary captivity). Of the others, some were killed or fell on 7/10 and their bodies were taken hostage, and others were killed in captivity.

whisperofpeace · 26/02/2025 13:00

@israelilefty thank you for taking the time to answer. I will keep an eye out on the news to see if there's further clarification on the deal after the funeral today. I watched parts of the funeral which were deeply moving, perhaps this will give the government the motivation to secure the second phase and bring everyone home.

Stirabout · 26/02/2025 14:57

israelilefty · 26/02/2025 08:44

For people who want to understand the collective mood, here is Lior Ben Ami's op-ed from Ynet this morning, Israel's most popular news site. Source: https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra14274351, google translated with some corrections by me.

Another chance to bow our collective heads

Today we grieve for the murder of two children and a mother who was left to protect them alone, and in some place we grieve for ourselves. For our priorities that were wrong. For not understanding that we had to fight for such a basic value: children's lives. For trusting too much in those who were supposed to do what was right.

Today, as if given another chance to bow our collective heads, the people will once again stand on the side of the road, sighing wordlessly in the cold air. They will show respect, they will feel pain.

Kfir, Ariel and Shiri Bibas have unwillingly become a symbol of broken humanity. A symbol of boundless cruelty. But also a sad reflection for us. For not being there for them. Not when they were attacked and kidnapped; not when it was clear that freeing four- and nine-month-old toddlers is urgent, now, before any other mission, before revenge; And not when it was necessary to stand as a determined people against a prime minister who had drifted far from the good of his country, and who has been broadcasting from a lonely island of politics and slogans since then.

So today we grieve for the murder of two children and a mother who was left to protect them alone, and in some place we grieve for ourselves. For our priorities that were wrong. For not understanding that we had to fight for such a basic value, children's lives. For trusting too much in those who were supposed to do what was right. Kfir, Ariel and Shiri must be our "never again".

Somehow, in the sanctity of today, we will not be able to resist turning a glance to the side again. To see if he [Bibi Netanyahu] is still there. He jumped to show empathy for the pain of his people. Like children who never stop waiting and being disappointed

The truth? No matter how our prime minister chooses to act, whether he makes a video address to the nation or does nothing, it will not change.

One way or another, the word "cynical" will be mentioned. And a dismissive hand will be waved. And not for nothing. The man who made his own choices at crossroads determining his people's fate. The one who preferred to stay in a luxury hotel in Washington when an entire nation was shocked by the condition of the returned hostages. The one who repairs a window at the price of a community center. The one who to this day acts as if Nir Oz is somewhere near a river in Africa - he is the last person who should tell us "a turbulent day is expected tomorrow." Or give us a look like someone who is shocked. Come on, as they say.

He was once the king of populism. The "top personality" of politics. Like somebody who promised aliens on live TV, Netanyahu promised "Iran" and "security" and then "total victory" and "just one more step." And he knew how to say what he wanted. He said "you are sour," he said "we are not interested in you," he said "super tanker," and we applauded like seals.

Today there is someone here, devoid of trust, who sweats to fit in but fails. Who recycles statements that once worked like "negotiation instead of just giving," and so on, only to discover it no longer works. Just like his displays of shock.
He is the last person worthy of holding photos of the Bibas family in his hands and crying out. Certainly not at the expense of the pain of the family. He's the one who led us to our disasters and pain so he shouldn't be waving them about.

We're also fed up with this trick of his, by the way. Responsible for the greatest disaster in our history, yet complaining; dragging out the legal proceedings against him, yet whining; sabotaging negotiations for the hostages, yet accusing; an entire campaign to avoid a political plan, an alternative government to Hamas, and then expressing shock at ceremonies held by an organisation [Hamas] that he – not the military – failed to blow away. To return to fighting under this man would be to return to a dead end.

"To my father's funeral - if they return his body from Gaza," tweeted Boaz, son of the late Aryeh (Zalman) Zelmanovich, aged 86, "will be invited only those government ministers who came to offer condolences during shiva or spoke with me during the last 506 days will be invited." Here is the list, he continued, and then - not a single name appeared on the list.

This will be, among other things, Netanyahu's legacy. Zero empathy and identification. Zero connection to the people. This is the reason why even if they [ministers, public officials] stand today with their people at the roadsides, shedding tears, we still won't feel that they are with us.

Thank you so much for putting in the effort to right all of that.
Its a truly heart wrenching read
💐

Stirabout · 26/02/2025 15:00

israelilefty · 26/02/2025 10:55

I would happily update you if our government would update us... We are all concerned for the continuation of the deal.

63 hostages remain in Gaza; the remaining living hostages are those men classified as 'soldiers' by Hamas, even when few of them actually were serving as soldiers at the time. There are also 3 foreign citizens from Thailand, Nepal and Tanzania. Of the remaining hostages, I believe 22 are believed to be alive. In 16 or 17 cases, there is recent proof of life via returning hostages (though this is not necessarily proof that others are not alive - since some hostages have been kept in solitary captivity). Of the others, some were killed or fell on 7/10 and their bodies were taken hostage, and others were killed in captivity.

And @whisperofpeace
from the news earlier I understand 4 hostages are to be realised today, Wednesday along with the 620 from Israeli jails that were supposed to be last week.
It seems the deal ( in part ) is back on track.
Although the end of this phase is Saturday and no news yet whether there’s been any real movement on what that will look like

ArtTheClown · 26/02/2025 16:31

This is the eulogy Yarden Bibas gave for his family:

"Mi Amor" I remember the first time I said "mi amor" to you. It was at the very beginning of our relationship. You told me to only call you that if I was certain I loved you, not to say it carelessly. I didn't say it then because I didn't want you to think I was rushing to say "I love you." Shiri, I'll confess to you now that I already loved you back then when I said "mi amor."

Shiri, I love you and will always love you! Shiri, you are everything to me! You are the best wife and mother there could be. Shiri, you are my best friend.

Mishmish, who will help me make decisions now? How am I supposed to make decisions without you? Do you remember our last decision together? In the safe room, I asked if we should "fight or surrender." You said fight, so I fought. Shiri, I'm sorry I couldn't protect you all. If only I had known what would happen, I wouldn't have fired.

I think about everything we went through together—there are so many beautiful memories. I remember Ariel and Kfir's births. I remember the days we would sit at home or in a café, just the two of us, talking for hours about everything under the sun. It was wonderful. I miss those times deeply. Your presence is profoundly missed.

I want to tell you about everything that's happening in the world and here in Israel. Shiri, everyone knows and loves us—you can't imagine how surreal all this madness is. Shiri, people tell me they'll always be by my side, but they're not you. So please stay close to me and don't go far! Shiri, this is the closest I've been to you since October 7th, and I can't kiss or hug you, and it's breaking me!

Shiri, please watch over me... Protect me from bad decisions. Shield me from harmful things and protect me from myself. Guard me so I don't sink into darkness. Mishmish, I love you!

Chuki, Ariel, You made me a father. You transformed us into a family. You taught me what truly matters in life and about responsibility. The day you were born, I matured instantly because of you. You taught me so much about myself, and I want to thank you. So thank you, my beloved.

Ariel, I hope you're not angry with me for failing to protect you properly and for not being there for you. I hope you know I thought about you every day, every minute. I hope you're enjoying paradise. I'm sure you're making all the angels laugh with your silly jokes and impressions. I hope there are plenty of butterflies for you to watch, just like you did during our picnics. Chuki, be careful when you climb down from your cloud not to step on Toni... Teach Kfir all your impressions and make everyone laugh up there. Ariel, I love you "the most in the world, always in the world," just as you used to tell us.

Poopik, Kfir, I didn't think our family could be more perfect, and then you came and made it even more perfect... I remember your birth. I remember during the delivery when the midwife suddenly stopped everything—we were frightened and thought something was wrong—but it was just to tell us we had another redhead. Mom and I laughed and rejoiced. You brought more light and happiness to our little home. You came with your sweet, captivating laugh and smile, and I was instantly hooked! It was impossible not to nibble on you all the time.

Kfir, I'm sorry I didn't protect you better, but I need you to know that I love you deeply and miss you terribly! I miss nibbling on you and hearing your laughter. I miss our morning games when mom would ask me to watch you before I went to work. I cherished those little moments so much, and I miss them now more than ever! Kfir, I love you the most in the world, always in the world!

I have so many more things to tell you all, but I'll save them for when we're alone.

quantumbutterfly · 26/02/2025 16:49

@ArtTheClown
"I want to tell you about everything that's happening in the world and here in Israel. Shiri, everyone knows and loves us—you can't imagine how surreal all this madness is. Shiri, people tell me they'll always be by my side, but they're not you. So please stay close to me and don't go far! Shiri, this is the closest I've been to you since October 7th, and I can't kiss or hug you, and it's breaking me!"

💔I read that Shiri, Ariel and Kfir would be all together in burial. The photos shared of Shiri and their beautiful boys before the horrific one that went round the world are a much kinder memory. I hope he can be kind to himself poor man.

MummytoE · 26/02/2025 16:57

Sorry if this has been mentioned already but I've just read that Shiras and both children are to be buried in same casket. Just heartbreaking

CerealPosterHere · 26/02/2025 17:41

Absolutely heart breaking.💔

israelilefty · 26/02/2025 17:42

Stirabout · 26/02/2025 14:57

Thank you so much for putting in the effort to right all of that.
Its a truly heart wrenching read
💐

Just to emphasise - I didn't write it, but it's an op-ed which I think summarises the mood well.

israelilefty · 26/02/2025 17:45

Stirabout · 26/02/2025 15:00

And @whisperofpeace
from the news earlier I understand 4 hostages are to be realised today, Wednesday along with the 620 from Israeli jails that were supposed to be last week.
It seems the deal ( in part ) is back on track.
Although the end of this phase is Saturday and no news yet whether there’s been any real movement on what that will look like

The 4 bodies of hostages (all dead) to be returned tonight without ceremony are the last of the first phase. No news on the second phase yet.

MummytoE · 26/02/2025 17:51

MummytoE · 26/02/2025 16:57

Sorry if this has been mentioned already but I've just read that Shiras and both children are to be buried in same casket. Just heartbreaking

Sorry I realise I spelt names wrong, it won't let me edit

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