How have we come to a state where the police confront someone for being overtly Jewish?

[mids2019]

Just how?

I think at best this inept policing at worst vile anti semitism.

I suppose it is now in the open that central London has become effectively a no go area for Jews given the potential for abuse from hate marchers.

Can't we just stop these marches so Jews can go about their business?

To the same people over and over.

My heart bleeds for you both.

Did he say, “Jews who denounce Israel” though?

I heard him say (near the end) their aim was “to dissociate from the acts of the Israeli government”, and that their movement was “Not in our name”. That is not really the same as ^denouncing
Israel^.

Though I can see the general point you are making, and this doesn’t change it, I still think his actual words are worth noting are they have a different nuance.

Out of interest, would you say the same to people who call out other forms of racism?

No it doesn't make you antisemitic (and no one here accused you of that as far as I can see). But it does mean if you're part of the pro-Palestine protest then that's who you're marching with. There has been swastikas, comparisons to Nazis, holocaust inversion and very vocal support for wildly antisemitic terrorist groups. And folk with anti-Hamas placards are removed from the march, which I get is for their safety (?) but fuck me that's bonkers. And yes, the swastika person arrested today was part of the pro-Palestine protest. I'll assume that also warrants a 'WtF'?

Also today there was a huge group in London chanting "Zionists are not welcome here". (Not entirely sure where "here" means but that's academic really). I'm still waiting for an answer as to what that means for a Jewish Zionist like me that's been pro-ceasefire for the duration. I've been asked why I refuse to join the protest if I'm against Israel's actions in Gaza. Well, I'm either "welcome here" or I'm not? They can't have it both ways. Bearing in mind a majority of British Jews would claim to be Zionist in some form, then surely you can spot the problem here? Why, even if we abhor the Israeli government (as Zionists), would we want to join a protest where we're being portrayed as evil monsters.

On Mumsnet alone in the last 24 hours I've seen pro-Palestine posters accusing Jews of being Nazis and those who believe in Zionism are "not only as bad as Hitler but far worse" because something about him being honest and transparent or whatever.

I'm sure someone will be along now to tell me there can't be antisemites there because Jews are marching, or something. Or the greatest hits, "can't say anything these days without being called an antisemite" and anti-Zionism isn't antisemitism. Much of the time it isn't but very often it is.

Being Jewish in London at the moment is pretty fucking scary, as I'm sure it is elsewhere.

I'm so sorry. Please know that there are very many of us who support you & will continue to do so.

I think you're missing the point.

I am sorry too. Thank you for taking the time to explain so fully.

Sorry, that was in answer to
Hélène79 · Today 22:46

I have a genuine question to those who identify as Zionist. What do you think about Palestinians?

What do you mean by Zionist?

this again

You tell me. A few of you have said you're zionist. So what does this mean? and what do you think about Palestinians?

Read the thread. I literally explained yesterday what it meant to me when I was asked. If that's seriously the only comment you can come back with from my post, I'm not taking your bait any further (which is just prompting another derail). Have a good evening.

It wasn't you I was referring to and nor is it bait.

It's a non-answer you're giving. I'm not asking 'what it means to you.' I'm asking what it actually means.

Your hostility shows you have no answer. Calm down.

@mrsrussel

noblegiraffe
What do you mean by Zionist?

"You tell me. A few of you have said you're zionist. So what does this mean? and what do you think about Palestinians?"

Look just answer the question by @noblegiraffe rather than answer a question with a question in some form of playground argument.

But if you don't know the answer then that's equally fine but please just admit it.

You tell me. A few of you have said you're zionist

Well I haven't said I'm a Zionist. I don't know if I am what you would consider a Zionist. What do you think makes a person a Zionist?

But I dont know which is why I asked. Because everything Ive heard about the term has been negative. So I want to hear from people who identify as zionist as to what that means.

Wouldn't that be better? From everything ive heard about being a zionist is that they only want jewish people living In Israel and dont want any Palestinians there. So is this true or not?

I think there are many Jews and Israelis who wish a ceasefire and hostages returned home. There are obviously Israelis who wish to live peacefully and securely in their state (as we all do).

one of the problems with the marches is that they are not exclusively about ceasefire and ending of human death. The marches include many who do not want Israel to exist as a state so I would question whether those that genuinely want peace would engage in a march where they would knowingly stand with those views.

I think many that call for an end to the marches are certainly not against a ceasefire and certainly don't want the end of human life. I think these people including myself want an environment where anti semitis m is virtually allowed under the guise of free speech.

People are seing opportunities here to delegitimise the Israeli state and I think we are being disingenuous not to see it.

Mrsrussel, I posted this a couple months ago about what Zionism means to religious Jews

”for religious Jews Zionism has a meaning separate from political Zionism - it refers to our eternal longing for our return to our homeland, the coming of the messiah and to rebuild the third temple. It’s central to our belief system, we pray towards Jerusalem three times a day, and our longing to return to Zion is referred to in our daily prayers and blessings over and over again, prayers said by generations of Jews, (for about 2500 years ) - since the destruction of the second temple.

political Zionism is a secular construct.
I believe this is the reason behind why some ( fringe) sects of ultra Orthodox Jews are extremely against secular Zionism and the establishment of the secular state of Israel because they believe that the messiah will come first and then we will return to our homeland. They still pray to return home to Israel daily though.

to be a religious Jew is to be inextricably a Zionist in some form, regardless of opinions on the political structures/ Israeli government/ state of Israel.”

I’ll add, by religious Jews I mean orthodox..

Wouldn't that be better? From everything ive heard about being a zionist is that they only want jewish people living In Israel and dont want any Palestinians there. So is this true or not?
not true

If you are not asking @Hélène79 what it means to her then why don't you go & do the research yourself. This thread is about the police behaviour towards someone 'overtly Jewish'. Jewish people in Britain on this thread are NOT answerable to you about zionism. Many on this thread & others have patiently explained. You should try listening & not accusing people of being hostile if they give an answer you don't understand.
But if you look at the makeup of Israeli society then you might learn something.

From everything ive heard about being a zionist is that they only want jewish people living In Israel and dont want any Palestinians there. So is this true or not?

This is the problem with listening to your echo chamber rather than doing research. No it is not true.

I wonder how many Jews are actually making efforts to hide their faith especially students at diverse universities? I wouldnt be happy being an Israeli or New wandering around US campuses at the moment?

I think there is a lot of disingenuous perspective by even highly educated educated people about the politics of the middle East and to many are being dragged into an anti Israel anti Semitic space with these protests.

Of course you are, as I am. Being pro Palestinian ( as in condemning the horrors inflected on the Gazans by the Israeli government on a daily basis) makes you antisemitic without a doubt. Personally, I think it makes you human but what do I know.

Why are you making stuff up?