How have we come to a state where the police confront someone for being overtly Jewish?

[mids2019]

Just how?

I think at best this inept policing at worst vile anti semitism.

I suppose it is now in the open that central London has become effectively a no go area for Jews given the potential for abuse from hate marchers.

Can't we just stop these marches so Jews can go about their business?

Birth rates are an issue for a lot of countries. That's why you have the likes of Miriam Cates begging white middle class Brits to have babies to preserve 'national identity'.

Do you mean this thread?

If you have reported it and it's still here means Mumsnet doesn't agree with you

Doesn't that characterise most of the threads in this section?

No, this is on another level. I've gone through some pages and honestly it's disgusting what I'm reading. It's just hateful, trolling on both sides. I'd consider myself impartial and wanting the best for both sides. But so far I've read that Israel is worse than Hitler, and pro-Palestinians are antisemitic.

I am paraphrasing as I've read a lot, so can't remember exact wording but that's the jist. That's a bit different to threads that naturally digress from the op.

You’re right- I should have said that’s not a version of zionists that actual Zionists I know have ever espoused. It’s a distortion.

Mumsnet has obviously decided not to delete the thread. You could report specific posts that you find offensive and they may get deleted

The recent post claiming that pro-Palestinians are antisemitic was by a pro-Palestinian.

Yes, but Mumsnet HAS specifically asked for it to be kept on track and been ignored since the request.

I think the current discussion about Zionism is certainly relevant to the question of why Gideon Falter got called a Nazi.

Unless Mumsnet come on here and facilitate the discussion themselves I'm not sure how they can insist on that. I don't think discussions going off in tangents is the same as intentional derailment. We're on page 24 of the thread which asks quite an open question I'm not surprised it has gone off in tangents.

As going off on a tangent means discussing something not directly connected, then I am surprised the thread has done so after a specific MN request.

Perhaps MN towers disagrees with you and sees that at least some posters are engaging constructively.

You might as well take down the entire CITME board with your argument.

I guess that's why the marches need policing. There are going to be marchers who in good faith want to see the end of civilian death. The marchers may actually recognise that October 7th was the catalyst for the war and in order to have a ceasfire both parties in a conflict need to lay down arms. I think this view is disingenuous but can be understood.

However there are the marchers that wish to see the destruction of the Israeli state and view Jews as an entirety as an enemy. The current war in Gaza has made being Jewish difficult in the UK in 2024 and we need to take heed of this and look to see how much these marches are adding to the problem.

The problem with marches is that you gain a mob mentality where an emotion escalates. I think ultimately the marchers know their actions have limited impact and so all the frustration built up is channeled towards targets that are visible....the visibly Jewish.

Maybe the marches will be banned if there is conflict between by Israel supporters and pro Palestinian supporters. If the marchers have to walk past Israeli flags then maybe they will feel deflated and those that ardently want a ceasfire on grounds of humanity will realise the two sided nature of the conflict and a call for a ceasefire isn't productive when marching with those that view those Israeli flags as something to hate.

If you genuinely wanted a ceasefire and peace of you were on a march and saw Israeli flags you reaction would be 'Those guys lost 1200 citizens in the most appalling fashion, I acknowledge your pain'. That's not what's happening though is it because the ceasefire marches are at partially instigate by those who want Israel to not exist and are firmly anti Semitic. I wonder if those genuinely wanting to impact the conflict should sit at home and write to their MP, the Israeli embassy or Lord Cameron with their views? It would be more productive and save our streets being filled with those whose aims are not to lobby for peace but for hate.

This so much.

@mids2019 how do you know if the people at the marches haven't already written to their MP's?

@Parkingt111

But what do the marches add?

That's a separate matter. My point was you are assuming that people haven't utilised alternative methods to make a difference/take a stand.

Its about weighing up the purpose, cost, benefit isnt it? As all these threads have shown the marchers have different agendas which can be interpreted in different ways. Calling for a 'ceasefire' is actually quite meaningless because a ceasefire can only happen as a result of negotiation. - if you go on a march its hard to read what terms a marcher thinks would be acceptable & why should Israelis or Palestinians or Egyptians, Jordanians, Quataris etc be swayed by the opinion of a British marcher? Of course some marchers will have written to their MP or signed a petition but many wont. A letter can be calibrated to the issue at the time. But we know the cost of the marches. We dont know the benefits. Is it really worth the cost to the fabric of society? The cost to those that need the police but aren't getting their services? The cost to those that feel unsafe? Its not just Jews seeing clear unambiguous antisemitism on the streets week after week. Lots of people are terrified of going into London because they are quite anxious of conflict & disruption.

https://x.com/doubledownnews/status/1784527685663805531?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

Naomi, Jewish Activist

Naomi in the video posted by Finallyloggedin said something against Zionism I think. Yet I doubt she was implying that there should not be a state of Israel. So what did she mean about Zionism? (I am genuinely asking.)

I am asking because of, for example, the earlier poster who explained she herself was a Zionist but one who also wanted a ceasefire, as are many; and because some posters were seeing those who say they are not anti - Jewish but just anti-Zionist as using this as a cover for anti-semitism.

@ScrollingLeaves

It seems that there is no agreed upon definition of Zionism or anti Zionist ranging from the right or not the right of the state of Israel and Israelis to exist through to right or not the right of Palestinians to exist.

It seems Zionism or anti Zionism is whatever the person stating it believes it to be.

Naomi in the video posted by Finallyloggedin said something against Zionism I think. Yet I doubt she was implying that there should not be a state of Israel

I wouldn't count on it, tbh.

She was kicked out of the Labour Party for supporting proscribed organisations (of the type set up by antisemite Chris Williamson).

Yet I doubt she was implying that there should not be a state of Israel.

@ScrollingLeaves If I'm honest I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if this is what she means. I've not watched the video because I've seen and heard enough from her over the years. She has been agitating against decent Jews for years now and sits on the fringes of the far left. She's also been known to prop-up some pretty vile antisemites, including those who shill for Iran and Russia-backed alt-left media. Think Chris Williamson and Asa Winstanley for instance, or David Miller, who this week is calling for lists to be made of British Jews employed in the civil service (he has form for making lists of Jews). But if I was to guess, I do think she probably means every single interpretation of Zionism that exists, including the simple belief in a Jewish homeland and not just the modern and ultra-right political definition that encompasses expansion.

I would agree with @1dayatatime though that there is no single definition, and it does mean different things to different people. I've tried, in good faith, to explain what it means to me elsewhere on here.

@hélène79
David Miller, who this week is calling for lists to be made of British Jews employed in the civil service (he has form for making lists of Jews). 😱

Sorry I'm going off topic, I have never heard of any of these people but why is this person asking for lists to be made of British Jews employed in civil service?
Isn't that illegal? I'm just shocked at that