What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

But as we know, not all non-jews are the same. And not all are as welcome in Israel as one might hope.

Lol, telling a Zionist what Zionism actually is.

Lol, like there's only one definition.

No, we don't know this.

Really? I know some Americans living in Jerusalem who are there because they are very pro Israel for the Jews and have found a warm welcome. Do you think the average Palestinian is as welcome as them?

It's because the left has been corrupted by what we in France called islamogauchism.

This isn’t about whether or not I want Israel to exist or if it has the “right” to exist. The reality is that it does exist. Do I disagree with its creation? Yes, because it was established via the forced expulsion and murder of Palestinians who were not responsible for the atrocities against the Jews but yet paid the price for them. Does that mean I want all Jews or Israelis in the present day to be forcibly expelled? No. What I want is for the injustices against Palestinians to end and a solution where Israelis and Palestinians can both live in peace.

That’s just further proof you shouldn’t come up with new definitions for words that are already in use and you shouldn’t turn the names of liberation movements for persecuted minorities into dirty words.

Imagine if someone said “I’m a feminist” and a thousand trolls replied “Oh so you like Lucy Letby then do you? You support the RIGHT WING government of Liz Truss? You liked her mini budget and thought it was amazing? I’ve checked your history and I can’t find any evidence of you condemning Rose West. Here’s a contextless video of a woman shouting at someone, do you support that? Ok so you found out the person in the video stabbed a man and a child, but that’s not what we’re talking about, we’re talking about contextless shouting and shouting is mean. Women harvest organs. Don’t believe me? This surgeon who is a WOMAN in 1993 removed a kidney from a donor but forgot to tick one of the boxes on the consent form. Now we’ve established that women harvest organs, let’s move on to how feminism means you hate men and it has multiple definitions including the one I just made up so you can’t argue with me.”

Sounds like we want the same thing then. So please stop using the term anti-zionist as that's not what you're describing.

Hopefully there will be peace in our lifetime

Oh boy!

That's how it works! There are many different forms of feminism and the term means different things to different people.

There are many different forms of left wing - the term means different things to different people.

There are different forms of Zionism. The term means different things to different Zionist groups. It's not like someone just suddenly decided to write a new definition.

How did they get permission for that? Work visa or something?

How welcome do you think Israelis are in eg Lebanon? Unless it has changed in recent years, Israelis can't even travel via Kuala Lumpur airport, one of the main air travel hubs in Asia.

Hopefully one day there will be peace between two official states and they will lose their "enemy nation" status and there can be a bit more free movement in the region.

It's really worth doing some research into what Zionism means. There is more than one type of Zionism and unfortunately the ones Netanyahu has aligned with either through collaboration or through relationship are not so benign.

I agree with this.

So the bloke who replies “so you love Rose West then?” to a feminist is just demonstrating his own totally-serious form of feminism?

Give me strength 🙇🏽‍♀️

Well I've never checked their visa status, oddly.

I know Israelis are not getting the red carpet in Lebanon. However that's whataboutery. We are talking about non Jews in israel here.

I am glad you hope for peace between two official states and losing the enemy status. I totally agree that that's what is needed. Hard to see how that can happen right now.

When you’ve got people who call themselves anti-Zionist, who bang on about how Israel was created by forcibly displacing people, calling them settler-colonists, who march with banners calling for Israel to “end the occupation” (presumably of the whole area that they’ve already objected to them inhabiting), and chant “from the river to the sea”, it’s kind of understandable that people might assume the end-goal of those people is the elimination of Israel.

Particularly when there are people doing and saying the same things who are actively working towards that aim.

I also thought this was the case. Its been mentioned many times on multiple threads that there are different types of zionism ie political/religious etc but now this morning everyone is saying there is only one definition and type

@Zonder
"I know Israelis are not getting the red carpet in Lebanon. However that's whataboutery. We are talking about non Jews in israel here."

Non-Jews in Israel who are Israeli citizens (ie not someone there on eg a work visa) have Israeli passports 🤔 Or do you mean people in the Palestinian territories when you say non Jews in Israel? Because that's not Israel, is it? So why would they get (/want) Israeli citizenship?

Israelis aren't "not getting the red carpet" in Lebanon or 13 other countries. They're not allowed in at all. Neither are people who have previously travelled to Israel. I'm not trying for whataboutery here, I'm trying to show you that Israel not allowing people from an enemy nation to live in Israel isn't unusual. It's not a concept unique to Israel. My Iraqi-born and bred MIL isn't allowed to even visit Iraq anymore.

Zionism means wanting a Jewish state of Israel. People have then used the term to mean whatever they want it to mean, like in the case of posters on here. If you're anti-zionist you're against the existence of the state of Israel. If you're against Netanyahu and his like, it would be more appropriate to say you're against right-wing extremists. Like, are you against Iran and think it shouldn't exist or are you against it's leadership?

@Humdingerydoo ok
So for example Netanyahu's version of zionism means that there is no Palestine. The whole area should only be Israel
So for those who object to that by saying they are against the form of zionism that doesn't recognise Palestine is that wrong? I personally can't see how it is if it's explained in a discussion rather than on a placard that says 'no to zionism' for example

That’s a caricature… Netanyahu disagrees with Palestine about specific areas, he doesn’t want to get rid of Palestine. I don’t like Netanyahu but when you turn him into a Disney villain, it only helps him.

I don't think they should say they object to Zionism, no. They can say they object to the Israeli governments stance on Palestine. They can say they object to the occupation. They can say they object to violent settlers. All these things are things that I, a Zionist, would agree with objecting to.

Saying they're anti-zionist is saying they're anti-Israel's existence. Of course, that is what some people mean. But if that isn't what you mean, wouldn't you want to distance yourself from that? Isn't it pretty genocidal rhetoric to imply you want to get rid of a whole country? That's where people often start feeling it's antisemitic.

@Humdingerydoo ok I understand it better now. Thank you for that explanation

@cauliflowerwaterfall I wasn't trying to turn him into a Disney villain. He has made many comments during his rule that he is against the Palestinians having their own state. And that is one of the reasons he is pushing for further expansion (quite successfully too) in the occupied territories

Not Netanyahu himself but from the Israeli Finance Minister

“There is no such thing as a Palestinian nation. There is no Palestinian history. There is no Palestinian language,”

Netanyahu certainly seems to want to get rid of Palestine.

(1) Hugh Lovatt on X: "Prime Minister Netanyahu proudly showing off his map of Greater Israel to world leaders at the United Nations General Assembly in September. t.co/uBHjVXrUN4" / X (twitter.com)