What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

You say you want peace but actually you're doing a really good job at putting up arguments when there aren't any, and putting words in people's mouths. I use a phrase to say I agree with you about Lebanon and even that isn't good enough for you.

Palestinians are not exactly welcome in Israel now, are they? Not talking about Gaza in that precise sentence.

@Toothyfruity and @Parkingt111
I'm not saying there aren't people, some of them in power, who want to get rid of Palestine. I'm just saying being against those people isn't the same as anti-zionism. Being against them is common sense being against occupation, being for a two state solution. It's not being against Zionism as that would be against the state of Israel's existence. Which is why I think that word should stop being bandied about so much. That is all I'm saying. I'm not going to defend Netanyahu and his rhetoric as I don't agree with it 🤷🏻‍♀️

Thanks for this. It seems clear that Netanyahu believes in Greater Israel. He has made this clear himself. So yes, i would say that does mean he wants Gaza to be part of Israel and not a homeland for the Palestinians.

That's his form of Zionism.

I'll just say this once again then I think I'll call it a day and focus on a less stressy board. There are different forms of Zionism. Some have room for Gaza and the Palestinians, and some don't. One person saying they're a Zionist doesn't mean all Zionists have the same view as them. Netanyahu has aligned himself with the Zionists who believe in Greater Israel.

Again, I was trying to explain that Palestinians not being welcomed into Israel with free movement is the same as Israelis not being welcomed into Lebanon. They're not allowed in. They're enemy nations. You'd need special dispensation. It's not a situation that's unique to Israel and Palestinians, which is what you seem to want to make it sound like.

Forgot to say, perhaps it's better to say some of us are not Zionists rather than we are anti Zionists.

You're right. I didn't list all the countries in the world where one people group is not welcome!

The issue is with people saying they're anti-zionist!!! As then they're against the existence of the state of Israel. What are you not understanding?! You're so argumentative just for the sake of it, it's absurd!

@Humdingerydoo my second post was to the other poster who was saying that Netanyahu only wants some areas to not be Palestine.
But I don't think so from certain things he has said it seems he believes in a one state solution.

There are different forms of Zionism. Some have room for Gaza and the Palestinians, and some don't. One person saying they're a Zionist doesn't mean all Zionists have the same view as them.

This is perfectly true though and at the heart of divisions in Israeli politics.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/radical-messianic-zionism

Netanyahu also said this I believe just today or yesterday

the Oslo Accords caused as many deaths as the October 7 attacks, “though over a longer period.”

how is one expected to believe after such comments that he isn't against a Palestinian state at all. And on a side note it seems even during such a stressful time he's still finding ways to rile up whoever he can with his inflammatory words

This is not true. Do not conflate the former with "the elimination of Israel" just as you don't want non zionists to explain what zionism is or non Jews to explain anti semitism.

Conflating lots of speech that suggests you want Israel gone with the idea that you might want Israel gone is really just drawing a logical conclusion.

If you need to explain how each of the individual things listed don’t actually mean you want Israel gone and that putting them together therefore shouldn’t give that impression, then perhaps what you’re doing and saying needs a rethink.

Plenty of people have already stopped using ‘from the river to the sea’ now they understand the impression it gives, for example.

Struggggggling · Yesterday 23:46

A quick Google shows that Israel has generally elected a right wing government and yes I agree UK/US Jews are politically diverse but data does show they tend to be on the left.

It's been suggested this is due to demograpjhic change, as Israel was initially dominated by Ashkenazi (european origin) Jews, who tend to be more left wing. As more Mizrahim (MENA) Jews came to Israel, with more right wing views, this shifted.

Mizrahi mistrust of Arabs, or what Shube calls ‘anti-Arab racism’, is real and not the result of Ashkenazi gaslighting. It is borne of bitter experience – a hostility Mizrahim brought with them from Muslim countries. This is the elephant in the room, ignored or downplayed by the Ashkenazi left: the subliminal memory of Arab and Muslim persecution experienced by parents and grandparents – violent riots, arrests, torture, even executions in the recent past, coupled with the atavistic fears of a vulnerable and servile minority at the mercy of an unpredictable majority.

https://fathomjournal.org/fallacies-about-mizrahi-jews-and-israeli-politics-a-reply-to-sam-shube/

Nope, this has been discussed far too many times on here to go into depth again, but these things are not mutually exclusive
Israel has a right to exist
Israeli citizens deserve to live in peace, freedom and rights
Palestine has a right to exist
Palestinians have a right to live in peace, freedom and rights - yes, from the river to the sea, all Palestinians should be free
Noone should live under threat of war, indiscriminate murder, exclusion, apartheid, injustice, illegal imprisonment
We must have a ceasefire

Etc etc etc
Not mutually exclusive

Well…from the river to the sea and Israel has a right to exist ARE mutually exclusive.

Also a ceasefire is mutually exclusive with the Israeli right to live in security and peace.

this is the whole problem isn’t it? for decades Hamas have used Gaza as a platform to launch thousands of attacks at Israel, and Israel have attempted to maintain a measure of security (strict control over what goods go in and out of the strip, etc). Now they’ve decided (and in the face of what happened in October quite reasonably) that this is no longer permitting them the level of security they need.

So yes- some of the things you list ARE mutually exclusive.

First of all, Israel was created through a violent and brutal means of occupation, displacement and oppression.

Then for decades after, Palestinians in the land were second class citizens, living in an apartheid state of injustice, indiscriminate murder, imprisonment, ongoing settler colonialism, burning of land and fields, etc.

Maybe as a starting point we can think about equal rights, respect and the ability to coexist in peace - they did it in Bosnia, it's still a segregated society with separate govt and education systems and it's own issues but they have managed a coexistence.

Its doable, if both parties want it and work towards it - then yes, none of those things are mutually exclusive.

From the river to the sea, all Palestinians will be free. It’s part of the Hamas charter, in which it immediately follows the detail that every inch of Palestine shall never be ruled by anyone but Muslims.

tell me, exactly, how that isn’t mutually exclusive with Israel’s right to exist?

Why do people on this thread (and others on MN) consistently ignore Hamas stating again and again that they will keep repeating their actions of 7 October?

Name me one country that allows terrorists free reign. That's a rhetorical question.

Regardless of Hamas' intentions Israel has to abide by international rules of war. That includes not starving civilians in a siege, only pursuing military objectives, acting proportionately and minimising harm to civilians as far as possible.

The Israeli government are being criticised internationally (even byvthe USA) for not doing more to protect civilians
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67687628?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6577fc8769d486126e941d70%26US%20says%20it%20is%20pushing%20Israel%20to%20%27put%20a%20premium%27%20on%20civilian%20life%262023-12-12T06%3A55%3A25.105Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:60a5d663-4a19-442f-b1c3-155c48297b83&pinned_post_asset_id=6577fc8769d486126e941d70&pinned_post_type=share

The situation in Gaza is horrific "we are in the midst of the worst humanitarian catastophe that any of us that work in Gaza have ever known"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67687628?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=65782d4387855b2dac7d40d4%26%27No%20words%20can%20describe%20the%20horrors%2C%27%20says%20aid%20worker%262023-12-12T10%3A05%3A12.935Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:74caaaa6-11a6-4cf5-a87a-0c13217f9234&pinned_post_asset_id=65782d4387855b2dac7d40d4&pinned_post_type=share

Hamas are evil but that doesn't justify extreme violence in return from the Israeli government. I cannot help thinking this is just going to play into Hamas' hands in the long term by radicalising more young people, similar to what we saw after the "War on Terror" in 2001.

Palestine 😅

Palestine isn't a country and that isn't a funny joke.

I'm so sick of people acting like Israel is just an innocent bystander in all this. Hamas wouldn't even have a reason to exist if Israel hadn't been brutally occupying Palestinian land for the past 75 years.

Name a country that responds to terrorism by unleashing genocide on the civilian population?

Are you aware of what a siege is? Here’s a map, now what are the green bits 🧐

First of all, Israel was created through a violent and brutal means of occupation, displacement and oppression.

It was not. It was created via the United Nations Partition Plan.

Then for decades after, Palestinians in the land were second class citizens, living in an apartheid state of injustice, indiscriminate murder, imprisonment, ongoing settler colonialism, burning of land and fields, etc.

Arabs within Israel are Israeli citizens.

Maybe as a starting point we can think about equal rights, respect and the ability to coexist in peace - they did it in Bosnia, it's still a segregated society with separate govt and education systems and it's own issues but they have managed a coexistence.

We could. Start by chatting with the Hamas leadership about that, see how it works out for you.

Its doable, if both parties want it and work towards it - then yes, none of those things are mutually exclusive.

It is absolutely doable, but not with Hamas.