What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

Zionism is the belief in the establishment of a Jewish state. In itself, there is nothing wrong with this.

However, Zionists believe they have sole right to a land that is not solely theirs. They believe in the right to expel and eradicate non-Jews to attain their goal. How is this different to colonialism or ethnic cleansing? At the heart of it is a belief that Arab Muslims and Christians are inferior and have no rights. They don't want to live alongside them. It is no different to racism.

Most the time it is ignorance about the stuff they read on social media or hear. They don't know enough about Jewish people or antisemitism or conspiracy theories etc to see the Jew hate

However because of the type of poster drawn to the titles of some threads and then the things they post I would say on certain threads you will see Jew haters that know exactly what they are doing. Look at what happens when someone starts a thread about antisemitism, all the low lifes spam it and deny there is a problem.

Nope try again

Again, the absolute BS you're saying about what Zionists believe is incorrect. Zionism does not mean no one else can live in the land.

I would like to hear more about what you think Zionism is, not to mention what you think Netanyahu is doing to Palestinians in Gaza?

Zionism is the belief in the protection of the state of Israel as a Jewish state. Israel being a Jewish state doesn't mean no one else can live there, as evidenced by all the non-Jews who have lived there since the state was established.

I look forward to you retracting your previous statements about Zionists with regards to your comments about ethnic cleansing, all Zionists being racist etc now that you know what a Zionist actually is.

Not sure why my opinion on Netanyahu matters? I'm trying to ensure you know what a Zionist is so you can stop spreading false information

Trulywonderful said
Saying all that, most people in Israel still seem to have left leaning politics in general.

Where are you getting your information from ? That is simply nonsense.

The left in Israel has been in decline since the 1990's, with the labor party now having 4 seats out of 120. The other left wing and communist parties have another 7 or 8 seats. Liberals have about 25. The rest (about 70) are either right, far right, crazy far right or religiously, crazy far right.

There is great popularity for the far right especially amongst the Israeli youth and they outnumber the more liberal, centrist older Israelis. Israel may once have been a left leaning, socialist dream , but that was over 50 years ago. Go and have a look at the make up of the Knesset. Just one of the far right parties has 6 seats, and there are loads of other extremists like them in power in other parties.

Yes, there are some very vocal, left wing , genuinely peace-wanting Israelis on the left, and they are a very brave, but small minority.

Graph is labor seats in 120 seat Knesset over past 50 years.

I asked right now because it was quiet and thought would be a calmer discussion but in the time I wrote my post out I can see there's a different discussion and my post wasn't to antagonise but to get a better understanding so maybe a discussion for another time

Sorry, I was going to reply to your post but I'm too tired and riled up by other posters to give it the consideration it deserves.

No no don't worry
I felt bad after I wrote it and saw what else was being discussed and didn't want you to think my post was trying to back up the other argument which is why I clarified. I should also go to sleep too so maybe another time

The fact you connect the two things

Give us strength

Go back and read my post I explained why they feel the need to vote right wing

Then I explained that most tended to a have left leaning politics in general. I didn't say they voted this way. Just that this tended to be most peoples politics. You know as in society values and way of thinking

Please read my post as a whole and not just copy and paste a line out of context

@ Trulywonderful

You claimed Israelis voted for right wing parties because they would feel better protected under the likes of Netanyahu, but really, underneath.... their hearts are with the left.
That was your premise, but it is a false one and it comes from your wish to project upon the voters of Israel, your personal idea of how you would really like them to be.

Try some Gideon Levy, he's written extensively about the demise of Israel's left as well as Israel's appalling treatment of the Palestinians. One of the few redeeming things about Israel is that it'll permit freedom of expression. He's been outspoken for decades.

No idea why you highlighted your own writing but anyway your second from last line proves my premise. Israelis tend to believe in free speech. They tend to believe in a lot of other social values that make them more left thinking than right. Voting because for security reasons because your country is getting up to 7 terrorist attacks a day on average, isn't the same as would peoples social values or beliefs. Israelis tend to vote out of need not want. Hence why the current government will very much likely be voted out. They have not provided the protection expected from those votes. I get it doesn't suit the narrative some want but most Jewish people are pretty left thinking. Especially if you put aside in Israel the settlers and some very hardcore religious types. All countries have some very right wing exstemists Israeli has these types too but hopefully with a new government they can get them more under control.

Someone asked me earlier about the current Labour leader and party. I have not had time to write anything yet, so here is my answers to questions on a different thread.

Anyone vote for Corbyn at the last election for PM?
No, normally a Labour supporter but when he was leader could not vote

Was that a good decision?
Yes because I couldn't in good faith vote for him and still sleep at night

Anyone planning to vote for Starmer at the next GE?
Starmer is a tricky one. I really thought him being a barrister and the head of crown prosecutions we had finally a good candidate for leader. However he has been disappointing so far. Except the odd moment in the house of commons. Also do I trust that Labour has got rid of the worst Jez fans. However yes I will more than likely vote Labour again

He recommended Corbyn unreservedly in 2019 for PM.
With the Starmer and Jez thing it is fairly simple in fact. As a Jewish person I know that some anti Jew types are sly. We all know Jez is sly and tricky to pin down on his iffy behaviour towards Jews. Therefore I don't even personally call him antisemitic. I just say he has Jew hating friends. Anyway Starmer should have known what most of us know about Jez. Maybe he thought it wasn't true or maybe he ignored it. However if as a Jewish person I cancelled everyone associated or friends with the likes of Jez, there would be nobody left. Jew haters are numerous and people that ignore Jew hate are even more numerous.

Trust his judgement?
Do I trust his judgement. I am not 100% but he is showing more bulls and not flip flopping as must. Therefore by the election I may be more definite about him who knows. I will probably vote for him even if not 100% because frankly what other choices has we got.

Perhaps the Europeans who perpetrated the holocaust should have been forced to give up some of their own land in Europe, displacing their own people, to create a Jewish homeland to compensate Jews for that atrocity and the preceding thousands of years of antisemitism they inflicted on their own Jewish populations. That obviously didn’t happen and instead we had the fallacy of “a land without a people for a people without a land”, resulting in 75 years of bloodshed and the clusterfuck of suffering we have today.

for what it’s worth, the majority of antizionists I know don’t believe Israel doesn’t have a right to exist. We can’t go back in time and we recognize the need for a pragmatic way forward to achieve coexistence and lasting peace. What most of us would like to see is an end to a brutal military occupation of the West Bank, the end of illegal settlements and removal of their psycho settlers, and a right of self determination for the Palestinian people who have the right to govern themselves and control their resources so that Israel cannot arbitrarily decide overnight to deprive millions of them from water, food and electricity.

I'm with @Popcorn23 here.

It's a nice idea that Zionism means Israel gets a land but non Jews get to live there. In reality it's not the case. Yes some non Jews get to live in Israel. But we know Netanyahu wants Israel for the Jews. He made an alliance with the Religious Zionist party and is doing a pretty good job now of clearing out the wrong type of non Jews.
https://www.vox.com/2018/11/20/18080010/zionism-israel-palestine

Of course there are different branches of Zionism, as i am sure you must know @Humdingerydoo Unfortunately the two Netanyahu seems most linked with are Zionists who believe in Greater Israel, which does believe Israel should claim all of its land and not leave any for the Palestinians.

I'd be interested in knowing where your research is from, that the pp is wrong about Zionism.

Well said @Desertrose2023

Yes some non Jews get to live in Israel.@Zonder

It's more than 'some' it's 21% so nearly a quarter. With the same rights and people sitting in Knesset.

Calling yourself an anti-Zionist and then having to explain repeatedly that you don't want to see Israel wiped off the map suggests maybe you're using the wrong word.

You’re the one conflating it though

Zionism really just means Israel has a right to exist and Jews have a right to self-determination. Since Israel does exist and self-determination is a human right (and Jews are human) and it would take an extraordinary act of violence to stop Israel existing and stop Jews living there, everyone should be a zionist.

As a rule of thumb, people who complain “being antizionist doesn’t mean you’re antisemitic” are not about to demonstrate this.

Likewise, people who claim they want to criticise the Israeli government never do. They are not interested in cause/effect of issues that happen in Israel. Misrepresenting things to try and portray Israeli Jews as monsters is not criticism. The same people cannot for example, name on the spot consent/translation issues which have happened in France, Germany, Japan, or even often the UK (I can tell you a similar thing which happened in the UK where a friend died, and this was never reported anywhere).

@Desertrose2023
'zion'ism is to do with the land known as Zion specifically, so Israel. But you know that. And out of interest, why don't you think the Arab nations should have had to give up land to the Jews? It wasn't just Europeans who killed and forcibly displaced us 😳 But again, you know that.

I think you need to look for a new word to better represent what you mean then. Calling yourself an anti-zionist is obviously going to make people think you don't want Israel to exist. Anti-occupation or something might be better suited. That would be something we could both agree with, and I'm definitely not an anti-zionist.

Lol, telling a Zionist what Zionism actually is.

As another poster has already pointed out, it's not "some" non-Jews.

My grandad spent most of his adult life in Haifa, because he wasn't religious and he felt he had more in common with Arabs (because he was one himself) than with religious Jews.

Zionism really just means Israel has a right to exist and Jews have a right to self-determination

It's really worth doing some research into what Zionism means. There is more than one type of Zionism and unfortunately the ones Netanyahu has aligned with either through collaboration or through relationship are not so benign.