Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Conflict in the Middle East
Thread gallery
40
MrsTerryPratchett · 06/11/2023 15:29

PurpleChrayne · 06/11/2023 13:17

I presume you're aware that Al Jazeera is the mouthpiece of Qatar, and their source is the "Palestinian Health Ministry", which is Hamas.

I know this is your traditional knee-jerk IT'S HAMAS, IT'S LIES reaction on every thread the second anyone talks about anything. But is anyone reputable saying there haven't been thousands of deaths? Hell, even disreputable sources.

The hellscape rubble in a densely packed area of residential streets with a huge population of children? I mean there clearly are. And do Hamas routinely lie about deaths? Because the UN, and others, agree that the scale of deaths of Palestinian children is horrifying even before recent events.

Aoide · 06/11/2023 15:31

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

FashinVogue · 06/11/2023 15:53

DownNative · 06/11/2023 15:18

Terrorist groups often have very fuzzy lines and they all blur the line between themselves and civilians for terrorist reasons. The fuzziness plays into terrorist propaganda as well - shoot one dead and they'll often whisk away the weapons so they appear to media as having been civilians instead.

As for Hamas using civilian infrastructure, they're well known for doing so. In the 2008 conflict between Hamas and Fatah in Gaza, Hamas used Al-Shifa hospital as a base which Fatah attacked and Hamas fired out from within. Hamas never stopped using civilian infrastructure in this way, including to store weapons and to launch rockets from.

Law Of Armed Conflict is clear that civilian hospitals lose protection if used for military attacks on an enemy. Its clear too that areas cannot be granted immunity from attack simply by the presence of protected persons aka civilians.

So, you can see how terrorist groups like Hamas always blur the line between themselves and civilians. This is perfidy and, if captured, Hamas aren't entitled to POW status either.

So, no, it doesn't mean axiomatically that a military power is trying to wipe out a people or territory by targeting civilian infrastructure. Terrorist groups embed themselves amongst civilians as its the only way they can survive a confrontation with Sovereign Military Power.

Show quote history

Tell me about those terrorists again.

Number of Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza over 10,000 😡
DownNative · 06/11/2023 16:33

FashinVogue · 06/11/2023 15:53

Tell me about those terrorists again.

Show quote history

Ah....do you do Whataboutery often?

I was responding very clearly to someone's question with my knowledge of how terrorist groups operate. 🤔

And I see someone's comment in response to my post was so bad Mumsnet deleted it before I even saw it.

MrsTerryPratchett · 06/11/2023 17:09

And I see someone's comment in response to my post was so bad Mumsnet deleted it before I even saw it.

A lot of things are being moderated in ways I don't understand at the moment. MN owns the site so that's up to them. But don't assume it's 'so bad'.

DownNative · 06/11/2023 17:12

MrsTerryPratchett · 06/11/2023 17:09

And I see someone's comment in response to my post was so bad Mumsnet deleted it before I even saw it.

A lot of things are being moderated in ways I don't understand at the moment. MN owns the site so that's up to them. But don't assume it's 'so bad'.

No, I will as those I've seen have been pretty bad plus that poster has more than one deleted comment in this thread alone. 🤦‍♂️

soddingspiderseason · 06/11/2023 17:19

These threads are becoming propaganda sites.

MsBattenburg · 06/11/2023 17:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Parkingt111 · 06/11/2023 17:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

That's just mean and uncalled for
Some people here may have actually lost loved ones in this war

flufferknutter · 06/11/2023 17:24

soddingspiderseason · 06/11/2023 17:19

These threads are becoming propaganda sites.

Telling the truth about how many Gazan people have been killed? You'd like this information to be hidden and kept quiet?

The truth isn't propaganda, it's just uncomfortable for some people.

flufferknutter · 06/11/2023 17:26

Parkingt111 · 06/11/2023 17:23

That's just mean and uncalled for
Some people here may have actually lost loved ones in this war

Show quote history

I've reported it for being callous. Some people have indeed lost loved ones in Gaza.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 06/11/2023 17:27

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I shall repeat the question I have asked previously:

If it were "only" 5000, would that be okay then?

What number is an okay number?

And, if the answer is "any number is okay" - then why bother arguing?

Do you have empathy for people who are "not like you"?

MsBattenburg · 06/11/2023 17:28

Hamas is a terrorist organisation, you don't have to be nice to them. You don't have to uncritically accept their propaganda.

And I know someone who has been lost in the war, but not on the side that MN cares about.

Parkingt111 · 06/11/2023 17:30

MsBattenburg · 06/11/2023 17:28

Hamas is a terrorist organisation, you don't have to be nice to them. You don't have to uncritically accept their propaganda.

And I know someone who has been lost in the war, but not on the side that MN cares about.

Again not true that only one side is cared about
I'm sorry for your loss
We all grieve differently but when we lose empathy for the innocent then we lose our humanity

EsmaCannonball · 06/11/2023 17:34

Can you imagine how much Hamas and Hezbollah would be deterred if Israel started using its own citizens as human shields? (Answer: not at all. It would probably make them doubly murderous.) This is all on Hamas. A Hamas ceasefire would end the war, an Israeli ceasefire would end Israelis.

Wibble128 · 06/11/2023 17:34

The first victim of war is the truth.

SideBob · 06/11/2023 17:36

I get why people are sceptical but to be honest, I don't think Hamas need to exaggerate the deaths.

Look at the destruction caused, look at the hundreds if not thousands of videos of people being killed. Then there are people missing under rubble.

MsBattenburg · 06/11/2023 17:37

Wibble128 · 06/11/2023 17:34

The first victim of war is the truth.

And the truth matters

SideBob · 06/11/2023 17:38

I don't think it's that much of a stretch to believe that 300+ people have been killed as a daily average, terrorist gov or not.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 06/11/2023 17:42

MsBattenburg · 06/11/2023 17:28

Hamas is a terrorist organisation, you don't have to be nice to them. You don't have to uncritically accept their propaganda.

And I know someone who has been lost in the war, but not on the side that MN cares about.

I am sorry to hear that, and I offer you my deepest condolences.

Israel has killed people I loved and cared about deeply, and Israel has imprisoned and tortured others. The only times in my life I genuinely thought I was going to die, Israel was to blame!

But I cried on 7 October, and again when it transpired that Shani Louk was dead!

Being sad, traumatised and shocked is understandable and okay. But we must not let it lead us towards dehumanising others - because if we do, we become the monsters we despise!

MsBattenburg · 06/11/2023 17:43

Hamas also count fighters as civilians and adults as children, which is something else to bear in mind. You can't believe a word they are saying.

icantchangetime · 06/11/2023 17:45

Surely Hamas must've realised Israel would respond with force when they attacked? What did they hope to achieve?

AllWeWantToDo · 06/11/2023 17:46

HeidiInTheBigCity · 06/11/2023 17:42

I am sorry to hear that, and I offer you my deepest condolences.

Israel has killed people I loved and cared about deeply, and Israel has imprisoned and tortured others. The only times in my life I genuinely thought I was going to die, Israel was to blame!

But I cried on 7 October, and again when it transpired that Shani Louk was dead!

Being sad, traumatised and shocked is understandable and okay. But we must not let it lead us towards dehumanising others - because if we do, we become the monsters we despise!

Show quote history

Exactly this. Sorry for your loss 💐

MsBattenburg · 06/11/2023 17:47

icantchangetime · 06/11/2023 17:45

Surely Hamas must've realised Israel would respond with force when they attacked? What did they hope to achieve?

This is exactly what they hoped to achieve. Civilians caught in the cross-fire to appeal to well-meaning people abroad. They have no regard for human life, Palestinian or Israeli.

juju99 · 06/11/2023 17:47

MsBattenburg · 06/11/2023 17:43

Hamas also count fighters as civilians and adults as children, which is something else to bear in mind. You can't believe a word they are saying.

How many people do you think have died, then? What figure do you think might be closer to reality, bearing in mind the sheer number of strikes over a four-week period, in a densely-packed are?