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Conflict in the Middle East
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Ohlalalalala · 14/11/2023 07:11

Efacsen · 14/11/2023 07:03

@Ohlalalalala was quite surprised to see these figures published yesterday as on Friday Hamas said they weren't able to provide further figures - the implication being that the process by which the figures were compiled had broken down due to lack of SAR and hospital morgues becoming non-functional/impossible to access

Perhaps things have improved in some way [?unlikely] or they are estimating the large number of bodies un-recovered in the rubble by interviewing bereaved relatives

It's a terrible business and I'm inclined to believe the US government spokesman who said last week that the figures were likely an under-estimate of fatalities anyway

100% underestimate, unfortunately.

According to Al Jazeera The figures have been reported by the Palestinian Ministry of Health, Palestine Red Crescent Society and Israeli Medical Services.

OP posts:
Jupitersstorm · 14/11/2023 10:10

I do hope all of this stops soon.

Ecdysiast · 14/11/2023 14:46

Alcemeg · 10/11/2023 17:31

My god, you're right!!! The Israelis just want everyone dead, including their own, and Hamas have been unfairly maligned. How silly of me, as a non-Jewish non-Israeli, to be so completely blinded by their evil campaign of misinformation.

@Alcemeg Not exactly, but close. They definitely want all the Palestinians dead, so they can take more land and ensure that Jews remain the majority of the population of Israel. They are willing to sacrifice some Jewish lives for the success of the bigger plan.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 14/11/2023 15:55

The figures are, from what I can tell, essentially "known figures from last Friday + verified fatalities in the meantime". They are highly likely to be an under-estimate for the following reason:

Figures are compiled by medical professionals - not only do we know from witness accounts that there are, literally, dead bodies lying on streets in Gaza that noone has been able to retreive so far, you do not even have to search very far for photographic and video evidence of it (I will not post any links; the pictures are absolutely gruesome).

These victims are not counted because no medical doctor has even certified their deaths yet!

Arguably a better estimate, albeit a gruesomely dark one, might be derived by taking the "last known figures" and then adding the average daily kill count for every day since.

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Parkingt111 · 20/11/2023 21:07

@Ohlalalalala thanks for the above link

BBC reports say death toll is now atleast 13,300. With atleast 5600 children

Ceasefire! Enough now
Return the hostages and stop the bloodshed.

Ohlalalalala · 21/11/2023 07:14

At least 6000 missing 😔

Number of Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza over 10,000 😡
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LethargicButAwesome · 21/11/2023 08:30

Ohlalalalala · 21/11/2023 07:14

At least 6000 missing 😔

Heartbreaking, we are witnessing a genocide and the world just watches.

Ohlalalalala · 21/11/2023 09:23

LethargicButAwesome · 21/11/2023 08:30

Heartbreaking, we are witnessing a genocide and the world just watches.

Indeed 😡

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EasterIssland · 23/11/2023 06:52

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/22/gaza-children-death-toll-israel-hamas

some sentences for those that can’t read as have to register

Take the argument that the health ministry is Hamas-run and, therefore, its figures can never be trusted. It sounds like a reasonable enough claim on the surface, until you realise that in previous conflicts the death toll reported by the ministry was largely consistent with the UN’s and even Israel’s counts. Last month, after doubts were raised by President Biden, the ministry even released the names, ages and identification numbers of the victims.

Indeed, the health ministry’s official estimate – currently 13,300 dead after six weeks – could well be an underestimate, as a senior US official has conceded. The figures do not include the dead buried under rubble who have not been retrieved. According to the independent Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor, which is chaired by US emeritus law professor and former UN special rapporteur on Palestine, Richard Falk, the civilian death toll as of 20 November is 16,413, with nearly 34,000 injured. This would mean one in every 142 Palestinian civilians killed in a month and a half.

The Bosnian war loomed over my own childhood as a case study of an unspeakable atrocity. About 40,000 civilians died in those killing fields in the years between 1992 and 1995

But aren’t many of the deaths in Gaza not civilians, but Hamas militants, you might ask? The evidence suggests not. Research by the Iraq Body Count project, which diligently compiled violent civilian deaths after the 2003 invasion, concluded last month about Gaza that “few of the victims can have been combatants”. Analysing the ministry of health data, they found only a “modest excess of adult males killed”, which could be explained by their greater exposure to risk in, for instance, rescue efforts. With an estimated 70% of the dead being women and children – and many of the slain men unlikely to have

We could also make a comparison with the war in Syria, rightly regarded as one of the great moral obscenities of our age. The UN estimates that nearly 307,000 civilians have met violent ends since 2011. Its prewar population was just over 10 times that of Gaza.

An estimated 15,000 Yemeni civilians were killed by direct military action between 2015 and 2021, mostly by Saudi-led airstrikes. This is comparable to Gaza, except Yemen’s average population in these war years was 14 times greater than Gaza’s, and this death toll was amassed over six years, not six weeks.

A comparison of child deaths across conflicts, macabre as it is, underlines the unique nature of this conflict in Gaza. In the first two years of the Syrian war, children were estimated to represent roughly 10% of deaths, in Iraq since 2003, 8.6% and in Ukraine since the invasion, 6%. In Gaza, they represent an estimated 42% of deaths.

This truce is welcome but the widespread destruction of infrastructure will mean people keep dying long after the bombs stop falling.

Despite the truce, people in Gaza will keep dying – this horrifying death toll must never be forgotten | Owen Jones

Comparison with other conflicts paints a harrowing picture of children being killed in unforgivable numbers, says Guardian columnist Owen Jones

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/22/gaza-children-death-toll-israel-hamas

Ohlalalalala · 23/11/2023 07:01

EasterIssland · 23/11/2023 06:52

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/22/gaza-children-death-toll-israel-hamas

some sentences for those that can’t read as have to register

Take the argument that the health ministry is Hamas-run and, therefore, its figures can never be trusted. It sounds like a reasonable enough claim on the surface, until you realise that in previous conflicts the death toll reported by the ministry was largely consistent with the UN’s and even Israel’s counts. Last month, after doubts were raised by President Biden, the ministry even released the names, ages and identification numbers of the victims.

Indeed, the health ministry’s official estimate – currently 13,300 dead after six weeks – could well be an underestimate, as a senior US official has conceded. The figures do not include the dead buried under rubble who have not been retrieved. According to the independent Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor, which is chaired by US emeritus law professor and former UN special rapporteur on Palestine, Richard Falk, the civilian death toll as of 20 November is 16,413, with nearly 34,000 injured. This would mean one in every 142 Palestinian civilians killed in a month and a half.

The Bosnian war loomed over my own childhood as a case study of an unspeakable atrocity. About 40,000 civilians died in those killing fields in the years between 1992 and 1995

But aren’t many of the deaths in Gaza not civilians, but Hamas militants, you might ask? The evidence suggests not. Research by the Iraq Body Count project, which diligently compiled violent civilian deaths after the 2003 invasion, concluded last month about Gaza that “few of the victims can have been combatants”. Analysing the ministry of health data, they found only a “modest excess of adult males killed”, which could be explained by their greater exposure to risk in, for instance, rescue efforts. With an estimated 70% of the dead being women and children – and many of the slain men unlikely to have

We could also make a comparison with the war in Syria, rightly regarded as one of the great moral obscenities of our age. The UN estimates that nearly 307,000 civilians have met violent ends since 2011. Its prewar population was just over 10 times that of Gaza.

An estimated 15,000 Yemeni civilians were killed by direct military action between 2015 and 2021, mostly by Saudi-led airstrikes. This is comparable to Gaza, except Yemen’s average population in these war years was 14 times greater than Gaza’s, and this death toll was amassed over six years, not six weeks.

A comparison of child deaths across conflicts, macabre as it is, underlines the unique nature of this conflict in Gaza. In the first two years of the Syrian war, children were estimated to represent roughly 10% of deaths, in Iraq since 2003, 8.6% and in Ukraine since the invasion, 6%. In Gaza, they represent an estimated 42% of deaths.

This truce is welcome but the widespread destruction of infrastructure will mean people keep dying long after the bombs stop falling.

Thank you for sharing.

From the same article:

No comparison is perfect and every tragedy must be understood on its own terms. Yet these numbers give a sense of the unusually brutal scale of what is happening in Gaza. It is not as if the realities on the ground are hidden. Thanks to courageous journalists and media workers – dozens now killed – we have evidence of the civilian toll in the most graphic detail possible. So where is the urgency on behalf of western politicians and many media outlets to put a stop to this? Why doesn’t it rival their justified disgust at the horrors unleashed by Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine? Few cheerleaders of Israel’s invasion have been able to admit that Hamas’s obscene atrocities of 7 October do not justify civilian death on this scale.

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EasterIssland · 23/11/2023 23:34

21k thousand people 😭

Number of Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza over 10,000 😡
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