To not pay their air fare

[rookiemere]

Please if you recognise me don’t out me.

I am an only DC, after a tough year of hard decline from dementia, both DPs are now in a care home close to me. It costs a lot, but thankfully DPs have amassed a lot of savings so I worked out the other day that they can afford it for around 8 years for both of them - they’re 92 and 87 respectively in poor physical health as well, so this should be enough.

The dilemma is this. DF is from another country originally. He is very generous to his nieces my cousins, because their DF died early under unpleasant circumstances. He has offered to pay their fares, 2 of my cousins have declined but one has made it into an annual trip with DPs covering the air fares, bringing along her DH and staying for too long periods at our house. They aren’t ideal house guests so DH put his foot down and said they couldn’t stay for an extended trip again. Accommodation where we live is expensive.

So anyway last night I got an email saying they were thinking of coming over and when would be convenient and what B&B could I recommend. No mention of air fares, so I thought maybe I should say that as the care fees are so expensive DPs can no longer cover the air fare. TBH I don’t think they should even be asking, but I suspect the trip will be unaffordable for them if they have to pay for somewhere to sleep and flights.

I know DF would get some joy from seeing them, and to be fair to my cousin she is very fond of him and he’s almost like a substitute DF in her mind. Technically DPs could afford the flights, but I need to be responsible with their money. I thought I could maybe suggest a contribution of £1k which would help with the fares, but not fully cover them.

DF thinks I shouldn’t mention it and make them ask if they want it. I think that’s coloured by the fact he finds the DH very difficult to get on with and feels they are grabby - as do I to be fair. He says it’s my money, but it’s not at the minute it’s very much still DPs and I am just enacting their wishes.

So AIBU not to offer the money when it’s been paid for in the past ?

Apologies if I respond periodically as going into work shortly.

@rookiemere just to say - mental capacity is decision specific. Even with loss of capacity to manage financial affairs etc, he can ask make some decisions, which is important to support him in doing.

I had a very similar scenario with my dad, right up to the refusal to acknowledge declining abilities, and I just want to say that you sound to be doing really well with supporting them 💐

Make sure you document this somewhere, along with your reasoning.

If you think there is capacity for your dad to understand, you could even record you telling him this. Or if there is some other responsible party who could act as an independent witness?

Basically, set a timed/dated record that you are making a thought-through decision + reasons why for now and future, not a hasty or emotional one.

I would send a bland “Let me know when you’re coming and where you’re staying and we’ll make sure we make time to catch up.’

legally it isn't. You either have capacity or you don't.

I think this is probably the correct advice however OP I would strongly suggest you use some of your DP's money to get a legal opinion from a lawyer who is a specialist in this area. Then you can act on their advice. This is assuming you have POA which I would suspect is the case with them both in a care home (there's literally no-one with capacity in any care home I've been in, sadly, over the past 5 years)

If your DP pays for flights, you don't have to put them up though, sounds like you have enough to deal with. It may be if they have to pay for their own accommodation they won't come or it will be a very short visit simply to visit your DF.

Sorry if I didn't read the thread carefully enough, but it sounded from what you said about discussing this with DF that has sufficient capacity to state that he'd like to see these relatives. Since the consult says he lacks capacity, I guess that as Attorneys you have to decide what he would have wanted in this situation. Tricky because his money may run out too quickly, but it sounds to me that he would want to continue to pay for the fares at least. Whether you think the relatives are CF is another question. They do sound pretty entitled especially expecting to stay with you and not behaving like respectful guests.

Capacity is decision specific. People with dementia can still make decisions on some things with support.

Legally once power to handle financial affairs is handed over to a POA or Deputy if no POA is in place, they make the decisions. However - for example - someone without capacity still has the right to make some decisions; under the Care Act they can make deciding about where they live - this went to the Court of Protection for us, where my father's wishes were upheld, even when the Court of Protection had themselves removed mental capacity.

It's more nuanced than just no capacity, no decision making whatsoever

This is true, you can't just spend his money like this and yes older people can live many years in a care home.

I would do this but also make it very clear that this will be the last flight that will be covered.

Why not make a contribution this time but make clear it's the last time. Then they can start saving their own money and working overtime. I expect they'll be wanting you to pay for funeral flights too. You have to do what is in your parents' best interest.

Cousins are CF's for sure @rookiemere

However.. this stands out.

You said your DF will get joy from seeing them.

And you said they can currently afford it.

So i'd focus on the pleasure your parents will have seeing them - and pay the fares as he always wanted to in the past.

Thank you everyone for your replies, I will try to respond to as much as I can.

With DF I keep conversations as light as possible. He used to be quite a tricky character but now the dementia has changed him and he’s quite jolly and positive but can’t remember what he had for lunch and often muddles up my 3 cousins.

I think if directly asked he would want to pay for their airfare so based on this, that’s what I am going to do including her H , but on today’s costs not when they get round to booking it.

Dcousin is very fond of DF and it is quite a tricky situation so I genuinely think she wants to see him, but I will need to advise her that short visits are really all he can cope with. We do take him out for lunch sometimes but I think he likes the idea of it more than the reality as he’s quite frail.

It’s hard to describe exactly why they are such awful house guests. I don’t diagnose people lightly but the H appears to have ADHD so talks incessantly about his main topic ( playing music in bars which is why he enjoys our town) and coming back late at night. One time he famously locked out DS and wasn’t apologetic at all. They also kept threatening to go travelling for a few nights to break their stay and then didn’t. They never once bought any groceries and my cousin took my washing out of the washing machine to put hers in. Oh and they came a day later than expected and didn’t let us know because apparently we would be at home anyway, they would have been fine for a couple of nights but just stayed too long.

This thread has been so helpful I will pay for airfare on today’s costs and when I get round to it look up about IHT etc.

You are way nicer than me OP. Your DP's are both in care homes and their life long savings and investments are depleting every month, and on top of that they are paying for CF'ers annual long haul get away.

That is your inheritance they are tapping into, you do realise. An inheritance that you deserve, as you are their only DC.

Once your parents are no longer here, do you think your cousin is going to stop wanting to come over on her free holiday or is she going to be tapping you for money, especially if she thinks you have inherited.

As a compromise I would reluctantly sub this year's plane costs, and tell them that this is the last time as the care home fees are astronomical and you can no longer spend any money on anything else.

What do they do, pop in and see your dad for an hour and spend the rest of the time on holiday?

This sounds really sensible OP

Hope you can manage to get some sensible boundaries in place for their visit with regards to timing and behaviours!

Oh and I am planning a small and quick funeral. I will make it very clear nobody should come for it. I had vaguely thought about a memorial thing in a place we could all get to a year down the line or when they have both passed.

I think allowing it one more year while you father may still recognise his niece and appreciate seeing her is probably for the best for your conscience (if you think your father would enjoy the visit), but after that, I'd tell them you must conserve their funds for their own care. And frankly, most people, even if they have/had a warm relationship with a niece or nephew, would still rather leave something to their grandchild, if possible, than have too much of their assets eaten up by paying for continued visits from the niece/nephew, once the money is being more quickly depleted by their own care requirements. It's one thing to be generous when you can afford it and still expect to leave an inheritance to your child/grandchild. Things change when your expenses go up significantly.

Sounds like the father doesn’t want to pay either if he said to wait and see if they ask.

I’d follow his wishes and if they ask, say no.

@BellaTheLiverBird cousin won’t see a penny from me once DPs have passed unless it’s something like a commemorative once off get together . I think she knows this, her H on the other hand..

Sorry it was my DH who said not to mention it I haven’t discussed with DF.

That is your inheritance they are tapping into, you do realise. An inheritance that you deserve, as you are their only DC.

OP shouldn't be (and isn't) using her power of attorney to endure she inherits more.

I think this is completely correct - you are continuing your fathers wishes by paying for flights but are completely right to not allow them to stay with you for free and to ask them to fund their own AirB&B/Hotel costs. I would almost put money on it that they won't come if it's not a fully paid freebie!

Deprivation of assets is only relevant if you need state care. DPs have savings for 8 years of private care x2. And the 92 year old is in poor health thus unlikely to survive until 100. Thus for family to visit will not count.

Equally as OP has PoA, as long as she can argue she made decisions in what she believed to be the best interests of her DPs and in line with their previous choices, she will be ok.

In that context, personally I would use his money to benefit him. Dementia patients recognise familiar people even when they can’t name them.

I think you are being VERY unreasonable. You are seizing control of your DF’s funds when he has full capacity over his financial decisions. This is illegal and a form of elder abuse.

In the final years of life, it’s the family connections that matter more than potentially having to apply for council care home funding a week or two earlier.

You have no right to deem it an irresponsible use of his money or to intervene to prevent his usual assistance to cover their airfare as he benefits from their visits probably more so than they do.

Its perfectly legal that you want to refuse to host them and are actively making it harder for them to visit their uncle father figure in his final years, although I think it’s pretty shitty you choose now to make it an issue when the end is only a few years away. I think it’s ethically suspect.

But hey, letting an old man die lonely and unable to see as many of the people he is closest to because you want to shame him into not spending 1 week of care home fees on airfare is how you want to roll with end of life care for your dear father. Go ahead, I’m just trying to highlight how this is a decision you may well regret when it’s your self in a care home.

Are they going to help pay for the care your DPs need if the money runs out? No? Thought not. You can’t spend your dad’s money on flights for relatives when the money is needed to ensure he and your DM get the care they need. You’ve worked it out. There’s 8 years worth of money left. You have to stick to the budget.

If your DPs die before the end of the 8 years, you can decide what/who to spend the money on then. Right now, the money has to be earmarked for care.

Your dad sounds like a loving and caring man and it’s commendable that he’s done so much for his brother’s children. But he cannot continue to fund them forever. Especially not now.

What do your parents want for their funeral/memorial and why are you dictating how the entire family should grieve? Are you literally going to ban everyone other than your self from the funerals?