AIBU to consider leaving our knitting group over its new policy?

[Solentseeker]

I’m in a women’s knitting group. It started as just a group of friends and extended from there. We meet twice weekly in an hall that has to be booked and paid for and go on trips etc so it has become more formal over time and has a treasurer, secretary, social secretary etc. I and two other friends were founder members but we take a back seat in the organisation now. We attract lots of younger members (30-somethings!) which is great. I (early 60s) love socialising with people, hearing their views etc.

The new chairman (woman) has recently decided that we should announce that we are ‘trans friendly’ and try to attract trans women and non-binary people. Apart from the fact that I don’t know what non-binary people are other than people who don’t sign up to gender stereotypes (most of the women currently in the group don’t go in for nails / make up / fake tan etc anyway so what’s the difference?) I don’t want men in the group, trans identifying or otherwise. I’ve been sexually assaulted a few times in my lifetime, as has another of the founder members. We’ve also always appreciated having a space away from the male gaze and voice, where women can have their voice centre stage for once. I know a number of the current members are also extremely concerned about this new push and would feel pushed out too if any men join.

I have no desire to ‘out’ myself as a ‘TERF’ by complaining or pushing back as it would in their eyes make me a ‘bad’ person and I always try to do good by everyone. I just disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that men should be treated as women because they say so. It seems so seething misogynistic. I’m deeply sad about the whole situation and think I’m going to have to leave the club, because the current chairman seems to stand for things that I don’t. I appreciate women’s rights and they don’t seem to give a fig. What do politics have to do with knitting? Do I just leave? Do I wait and see whether any men try to join before leaving? I can’t be arsed to fight back even though I would have a LOT of (currently silent) supporters.

I live in a very diverse area and I reckon I'd struggle to rustle up many non-binary knitters. I reckon you'll be OK.

Ofc, when you ignore 90% of the post referring to the knitting group and then quote one sentence out of context you’re going to completely miss the point,

This is true. But you do have to change the name.

Which might make it less attractive to both women and transwomen....

YANBU

I agree.

I have a similar hobby, as does my son, and I would hate for him to be excluded because he’s male.

0h I don't know, there's some very dodgy knitwear in the non binary community, some could do with joining a group.

And he could go when and if it becomes a knitting group.

I’ve got NOTHING against men joining if that’s what is wanted, but that would change the whole atmosphere and ethos of the group and so I’d expect that to be a formal group decision.

What I object to is men being welcomed in because they’re pretending to be women when we’re all supposed to turn a blind eye to the fact we know they’re men and not women to ‘be kind’. I wouldn’t expect to get accepted into the black community as a black woman when I’m clearly white, just because I grow deadlocks and say I feel like a black person. I cannot see the difference here.

And no the chances of a trans women trying to join are vanishingly slim, but it’s the stance that should they want to join that would be ok without question / no further convo needed that I object to. Just as a group for black women should be expected to automatically accept a white person because they say they’re white and they’re displaying black cultural tropes.

Ok doke so you set up your own knitting group for whoever you like. OP set up the group she wanted to join….

Frankly sometimes you just want a space away from men. It changes the dynamics. And I do think it's fine for men to say 'oh this is the men's photography club's or whatever as well. Because men are also entitled to have a space to socialise with each other, because again, it alters the dynamics. Particularly in this instance, where the club has been set up by a few friends originally. It's not an official organisation. Sometimes, a lot of these clubs are joined by people who are quite lonely. Some people feel more confident and comfortable socialising with and opening up to the same sex, and it isn't wrong to have a few hobby groups that accommodate that 🤷 The vast majority of hobby groups are open to everyone. There is a women's book club near me. And there are things for men too. It's not that deep.

It depends how important the group is to you OP, but I'd just wait and see what happens. I think trans women knitters is probably a niche! I also think you should vote on it in the committee, as is the norm in these kind of situations normally.

They were gate keeping golf too and let’s face it, OP doesn’t want to exclude men on the basis of knitting but from the exact same kind of networking which is just as powerful in its own way.

Why do you want to exclude men from your group? Lots of men knit, and on the face of it excluding them seems really discriminatory. There is nothing about knitting that is sensitive or which requires privacy.

What "diverse selection of women"? What does that mean?

Women are women.

Do you mean, for example, tall women, or red heads, or women with curly hair or something?

I don't think anything is stopping them joining, from what we've been told.

Actually yes you can. That’s what girl guides do, and what Women’s institute do, what councils do when they run women only swimming, or women only gym classes or women only careers and networking events and many other charities, services and groups. They see that there is a need for women to have the opportunity to socialise and take part in activities that only include other women, not necessarily because of safety or religion, but because of comfort level or shared experiences.

There is nothing illegal about it or that goes against human rights.

OP has no right to ignore the equality act when it comes to an actual established group. If it were just still friends meeting up that’s different. She is equally free to take her sexist discriminatory self elsewhere…as they say birds of a feather flock together. I’m sure Reform would be willing to find some new knitters for her to join.

I know a few. Gay men. Who are in general highly supportive towards trans inclusivity at all costs.

The OP does not want to exclude men from a hobby group. She wants to belong to an all female group because of previous sexual abuse based trauma. She explained this perfectly clearly.

Well, here's the point....

....there are TONS of hobby groups just for women. Locally, off the top of my head: walking; social; games; book club; crafts; networking. Those are just the ones I know of. I'm in a couple of them and do things with a few of them.

There's no reason there CAN'T be a hobby group just for women.

And, to balance things out, in my village we also have man cave. I don't know what's in it because I'm a woman and happy to accept that it's not for me.

No, those groups do activities that require undressing, or have minors, or are part of closing the gender gap. None of that applies to a knitting group.

It’s socialising as women. Without men’s voices which 90% of the time dominate. Thats why it’s important. It’s a social group with a knitting focus. If men wanted to join I’d expect a decision to be made as a group, not by one person.

Quite. As long as they are clearly labelled, you can have men's groups, women's groups and mixed sex groups. All are fine and all are good. What you can't do is call one a thing that it is not. And you can't mean gender rather than sex in the the single sex groups.

Simple. Groups for all according to their wish. If they can be arsed to set them up.

The new chairman (woman) has recently decided that we should announce that we are ‘trans friendly’ and try to attract trans women and non-binary people.

Has the chair explained why she feels this is necessary?

I have been a member of several knitting groups since I began about 20 years ago. There's always conversation but we can all manage to knit and talk at the same time, except possibly when counting stitches or when at a complex part of the pattern.

I can't ever remember a man wanting to join. One of us describes herself as non-binary in the "about me" section for one online group but she's never said anything about it. Contentious topics are avoided - apparently one person is a Trump supporter but that's never discussed.

Men do knit, and I expect join knitting groups but not in large numbers.

So, I regret that I suspect anyone born male wanting to join your group might only be doing it to feel accepted as a woman, rather than sharing in your hobby.

But it's also likely that no men will apply.

Yeah trans knitters are a real problem in society.

The things people worry about, Jesus H Christ.

Yes she does. She wants to convince her group to change their mind and exclude men

Are you saying you're not allowed a single sex group then? As that's not true.