AIBU to consider leaving our knitting group over its new policy?

[Solentseeker]

I’m in a women’s knitting group. It started as just a group of friends and extended from there. We meet twice weekly in an hall that has to be booked and paid for and go on trips etc so it has become more formal over time and has a treasurer, secretary, social secretary etc. I and two other friends were founder members but we take a back seat in the organisation now. We attract lots of younger members (30-somethings!) which is great. I (early 60s) love socialising with people, hearing their views etc.

The new chairman (woman) has recently decided that we should announce that we are ‘trans friendly’ and try to attract trans women and non-binary people. Apart from the fact that I don’t know what non-binary people are other than people who don’t sign up to gender stereotypes (most of the women currently in the group don’t go in for nails / make up / fake tan etc anyway so what’s the difference?) I don’t want men in the group, trans identifying or otherwise. I’ve been sexually assaulted a few times in my lifetime, as has another of the founder members. We’ve also always appreciated having a space away from the male gaze and voice, where women can have their voice centre stage for once. I know a number of the current members are also extremely concerned about this new push and would feel pushed out too if any men join.

I have no desire to ‘out’ myself as a ‘TERF’ by complaining or pushing back as it would in their eyes make me a ‘bad’ person and I always try to do good by everyone. I just disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that men should be treated as women because they say so. It seems so seething misogynistic. I’m deeply sad about the whole situation and think I’m going to have to leave the club, because the current chairman seems to stand for things that I don’t. I appreciate women’s rights and they don’t seem to give a fig. What do politics have to do with knitting? Do I just leave? Do I wait and see whether any men try to join before leaving? I can’t be arsed to fight back even though I would have a LOT of (currently silent) supporters.

Not according to the chair.

Your response to that was extraordinary. Totally straw man.

Sigh. This group is, and was clearly intended to be. Otherwise the chair wouldn't even have brought up the topic, it just would have happened. So even the chair knows it is changing the parameters.

I completely agree with you and would hate this too. Someone has to say something.

Everyone’s preferred topics. Who wants to be on the end of a 5 min rant about politics that you wholeheartedly disagree with but are too polite to say anything about? Because you’re too interested in the plans for the new bypass and whether the head teacher in the primary school really is being sacked for being drunk at school.

Although the possibility exists that for some members of the group the very fact that it is a womens group for a hobby means that they feel able to attend. Women who for religious or cultural reasons would not want to attend a mixed sex group, or women for whom their past experiences make them uncomfortable in a group that includes men. Why are their needs not valued?

Sigh.

OK.

According to the OP, it is, and always has been, a women's knitting group.

The chair had recently suggested opening up to trans women. Who, as you rightly point out, are men. If that happens, it will then be a mixed group.

Anyone who doesn't want to be in a mixed group can leave. And maybe set up a new women's group.

Fuck me. It’s knitting.

Just get your friends round to your living room/Costa and knit and chat. Why does it need a fucking constitution?

I hate all this self important, exclusionary shite.

It would be ethical progress to change the ‘ethos’ from sexist to not sexist.
I realise for a 60 something woman this might be as hard for you as it is for 60 something men to ditch their banter. There’s a generational element here of being stuck in the past when women knitted and men smoked a pipe and read the times.

It always used to be this. Then we got bigger and someone suggested we book a venue especially as the village hall needed the cash. It’s never had men in it. It’s just been friends of friends and grown from there. It’s never been ‘exclusionary’

So, your version of sexism isn't OK, but blatant ageism is?

Great stuff.

But dp you accept that it would be ok for women who don't want to attend a mixed group to hive off and set up their own? And that the original group needs to change its name?

If so, we agree. As the chair won't give way on this, so the OP and any women who want a women's group will have to start again. And be more careful about who they let into it!

The Chair is the one ignoring the Equality Act, not the OP.

An association can legally be single sex simply because it wants to be. Other organisations such as businesses and service providers need to meet the stricter test of 'proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim'; associations do not.

But any service or organisation that is single sex must be single sex. Not single sex plus a select group of the other sex. This was confirmed by the Supreme Court last year.

Legally, the group can let in either all men, or no men. It cannot let in some men. That would be discrimination.

It is not sexist to have a group that only includes women. I know it’s not sexist because the Equality Act which is the legislative instrument used in this county to define the parameters of what is or isn’t sexist allows for groups to exist just for women or just for men. Recent court cases have re-confirmed what the legal definition of a man is and what the legal definition of a woman is.

Sadly it needs to start being. If you want a women's group.

So sack it off and invite your pals round and stick the kettle on.

Make sure it's an anonymous vote.

And the name of the club would need to be changed, surely?

Yes, that's what she's asking. That's the core of the original question.

Because it’s not rational to excuse discrimination on the basis of religion or prejudice.

(I hope you understand that prejudice is fear or dislike based on past experiences)

I think this is probably going to be the best option.

Went to an art university, lots of creative trans and non binary people- a trans friend of mine at the time actually made amazing installation knit and fabric projects. This might be a good oppertunity for OP to see people as just that- people. People with shared skilled and intrests to learn from.

it’s a piece of nonsense. It’s a knitting group. That has chosen to tie itself up with a constitution.

Yes, just start again in the spirit that was intended.

Leave the rest to it.

Allows for certain groups that meet specific requirements to exist just for men or just for women. Not any old group because…