DD behaved abysmally and need to vent

[Innish22]

My DB looked after both of my DCs at the weekend and DD (11) and himself had a falling out. DB was furious when dropping them back and said outright that he won’t be looking after her again.
I don’t blame him and I’m very disappointed in her, but I also know that my brother holds grudges for ever, which means that this will cause friction for the wider family.
DD is digging in her heels and refuses to apologise, but she seemed upset this evening and I think that she is ashamed and will come around.
That’s it. I just needed to vent because it’s the last thing I needed to start the week.

Uncles and brothers have been known to be P.
In fact I bet they make up a large percentage of abusers. Often the parents are non the wiser.
I’d want to know more about why she chose that particular insult and if it really was an impulsive/bad choice of word.
If he took her iPad off her, her response could have been something vulgar but not P. Why was that word on the tip of her tongue.
And I’d want to have that conversation in an environment where she doesn’t feel confronted or in trouble. And then tbh I wouldn’t punish her. She’ll see the consequences of her action when he doesn’t look after her anymore (which is a fair response) but the topic is thorny. If almost every female is at some point exposed to sexual harassment the last thing we want to do is terrify them of ever raising an allegation. Yes she likely got it wrong this time - though that isn’t certain.

She called him a homophobic trope. It’s not a lie, it’s a deliberate slur - an insult. He’s gay and mud sticks. If this was taken out of her hands she could retract it all she wants, he would still have to live with the suspicion it would create. The evidence is right here on this thread - no smoke without fire.

So I do think holding a grudge against a child is a little but far but also what your daughter said was horrendously offensive and I would punish her fairly seriously. It’s not like she’s a 4 year old who heard a word and repeated it not knowing what it meant.

Sorry, how many people are saying no smoke without fire? I’ve read pages and pages of people calling the DD a bitch and defending this man they’ve never met. I must have read no smoke without literally once on this whole thread.

You are living in a fantasy land if you think gay men never abuse children and therefore we should all ignore any comments of this nature without a proper conversation before jumping to the conclusion it’s a homophobic slur (from his niece that usually adores him).

Yes - also would add that the word is far too easily thrown out by children - I once accidentally bumped into a child on a school corridor, apologised, and was told I was a paedo. I didn't know the child at all.

What do you think isn’t certain about it, given how often OP has been over the context and the circumstances in which it happened ? There wasn’t one word in her OP about her brother doing anything wrong - he was the one who came to OP to tell her what had happened. Do you know how often these slurs, and worse, are bandied about by school kids of DD’s age ? My step daughter is a TA and some of the things she’s been called, and has heard male teachers being called by kids younger than DD would make your hair stand on end. Your whole post demonstrates why situations like this need to be handled properly.

There’s a huge difference between ensuring females can comfortably raise genuine concerns and allegations, and facilitating spiteful children from ruining innocent lives.

Initially I thought "how pathetic, suck it up and be the grown up". But having read your posts about what your daughter said and did, I don't blame your brother for saying he won't have her over again. Of course he wants to distance himself from really dangerous lies, that's sensible.

It sounds like he's an active and involved uncle who wouldn't make this decision lightly. The homophobia that runs through what she said could well have been triggering to him if he's physical violence and bullying related to his sexuality in the past.

It was a spiteful thing to say but it's the kind of thing that could have reputational and life changing consequences if it were to snowball as mean lies and gossip can so yes, I'm totally with him saying he won't be spending time with her.

Maybe she'll move out of this behavioural phase but in the meantime, this is a clear consequence of her own poor choices. She's 11 not 5, she knows the power in those words.

Not a normal emotional reaction but her behaviour is communication.
At 11 feelings are pretty big.

she wanted to have fun with him
and he stepped into a parent roll and she already has one of those. Her reaction intended to hurt him so must have been feeling very hurt too. Did he call her names? Brat or something else?

I would be probing this gently OP

I didn’t say anyone had literally said it - it’s an undercurrent and I’m by no means the only one who has picked up on it.

And no. I’m not living in fantasy land at all. I’m a realist. And that includes being able to tell the difference between genuine disclosure of a concern and a spiteful child who is angry at a device being confiscated.

She didn’t just use the word though… whatever she said referred to the child her uncle looks after who wasn’t there at the time…

From OP’s updates she seems to have said something like ‘you like little boys’ and brought the other child into the conversation as an example. This is a child of a friend who DB babysits from time to time.

Except you literally can’t tell. Because that’s exactly the kind of thing a child might blame their disclosure on even when it’s true.

See how these things grow legs ? The child didn’t disclose anything to anyone. She had an argument with her uncle, used a homophobic slur and it was he who brought it to OP’s attention.

Exactly, it’s not as simple as her turning around and saying ‘you’re such a paedo” she’s said something more…

Maybe I will bother explaining to you how children disclose abuse because it very often isn’t how you seem to imagine it would happen. They create an issue that requires the parent to probe and unpick until the truth comes out. What you’re imagining a disclosure looks like happens in less than 5% of cases.

Then, when they see the effect or impact of their words or consider how it will affect their lives and the people they love (very, very often including their own abusers as they still love the person they just want the behaviour to stop) then they very, very often retract what they have said.

What DD said was awful, but she is 11 and your brother is an adult. You need to sit down with both of them and explain to DD why it was such an awful thing to say and get her to apologise to your DB.

Also, if removal of tech makes her behave like that , then she shouldn't have it at all.

I agree with this. She could ruin a male teachers career. I'm a foster carer and I'm told a brief history of any potential foster DC. If there is anything in their history of making up false claims, and this is known about some DC, then I don't take them. I have a husband and another older ex foster son to consider and any impact such an allegation would have on their life.

I agree that it's playground banter but that's usually where it stays.

To say it to the face of a presumably loved relative is something else imo.

Also not regretting it & apologising straight away is pretty bad.

The relationship will no doubt be damaged for a while-but will she even care?

She is 11! OP has not posted verbatim what was said, just that she alluded to her uncle liking little boys. She said that as a child. Not as an adult with the weight of context.

Exactly. People seem to be generally ignoring the context of this entirely.
Yes, homosexual men can be child abusers - actually so can women. But that fact is entirely irrelevant to this situation.
Homophobic slurs shouted at someone in anger can cause real harm. As this thread shows, there's always someone prepared to believe the worst.

Apart from ONE comment saying there’s no smoke without fire, nobody has said they believe the DD.

You are all reacting to what you all imagine the reaction will be instead of what it has been. The majority of posters are extremely sympathetic to the brother, and there are a very few of us saying you should have a calm conversation and make sure of the facts before jumping in to punish the DD. That’s all that has happened on this thread.

You all seem to care a lot more about the damage that “could be” done to an adult man instead of the damage that could be done to children. I bet there aren’t 30% of men or homosexual men that have had their lives ruined by kids throwing words around. Unfortunately 30% of children will be abused and in many cases, ignored.

But given that some people will believe it, it’s damaging to children as well - crying wolf and all that.

Some people will think there is no smoke without fire. We should surely be glad of men who genuinely like children (in the same way that many women do) who can be positive figures in children’s lives.

But all it takes is something like this for them to back away.

There’s no silver living in an angry child suggesting her uncle is attracted to little boys.

It doesn’t help child victims be taken seriously, it’s not acceptable to throw around.

And it’s also normal to be sympathetic to an adult on the receiving end of this.

No, it isn't, we are always see posts on here that schools should be made aware of spats between children etc., safeguarding is usually quoted, Safeguarding should apply to everyone in the school, including staff, if a pupil is known to have made violent threats, carried a knife the school would want to be told. The same should apply here, an accusation, however wrong, can have devastating consequences, there'll always be the 'no smoke without fire' brigade, careers can be ruined and the MH results debilitating. I know of what I speak btw.

Really what adult goes around and calles gay men pedos, just to get attention.