DD behaved abysmally and need to vent

[Innish22]

My DB looked after both of my DCs at the weekend and DD (11) and himself had a falling out. DB was furious when dropping them back and said outright that he won’t be looking after her again.
I don’t blame him and I’m very disappointed in her, but I also know that my brother holds grudges for ever, which means that this will cause friction for the wider family.
DD is digging in her heels and refuses to apologise, but she seemed upset this evening and I think that she is ashamed and will come around.
That’s it. I just needed to vent because it’s the last thing I needed to start the week.

I actually don’t think it’s as simple as that. It depends on what words were actually used. If she simply called him a paedo, that’s bad enough, but OP mentioned the words ‘liking little boys’. If she actually used those words ‘you like little boys’ that’s a whole different ball game. It’s specific and suggests a conflation between being gay, and being a child abuser and that needs to be firmly addressed. DB will have recognised this and that’s why it’s so hurtful - she’s virtually told him that that’s how she sees him.

He will also recognise that he now has to be very careful about being left alone with her, which can’t be easy for him. So I don’t think he is the one who needs to grow up.

This OP.
She won't really understand what she did otherwise .

Your daughter deliberately used a slur towards your brother, that she knew would cause the most upset. At 11, she doesn't have the understanding of false accusations, how those accusations can destroy a person's life, that historically the gay community have had to deal with hatred or a proper understanding of the word she used. She does though know right from wrong.

Is it possible OP, that she's seen the news in more recent months, where a gay couple adopted a very young child, and abused him? It's possible something like this has made her believe that all gay men are like this?

Your brother has every right to be angry. He's probably had to deal with prejudice and homophobic behaviour from complete strangers. To then have something like that thrown at him by his niece, who he adores, must have very much upset him.

Yes, you need a conversation with her. You need to explain the seriousness of accusations etc. I think you do need to explore where she got the idea, that gay men 'like little boys' from. Yes, children do use the word 'pedo' and thrown it around the playground amongst themselves, because they find it amusing. Again, it's a word used, where they don't always fully grasp the understanding of.

Your daughter needs to apologise to your brother. She also needs to understand that the consequence of her behaviour, is that he no longer wishes to look after her again. I don't think your brother is being unreasonable either. Yes, he is an adult, and she's a child, but that isn't an excuse. She's old enough to understand right from wrong and she knew the words coming out her mouth were wrong, and designed to hurt... otherwise she wouldn't have said them!

I do get what you’re saying and I’m really not putting all that weight on DD’s shoulders - I’ve said in several posts that she very likely doesn’t understand the full implications of what she said, but that doesn’t exonerate her, and if, as OP posted, she’s used the words ‘you like little boys’ that does suggest a level of understanding of what she’s saying. It also sends a message to her uncle that this is how she sees him, which must be so upsetting, regardless of her age.

I absolutely agree that the reaction OP is anticipating from her DB is OTT and hopefully if OP can manage to sort through the mess it won’t come to that, but I do understand why he’s taken offence, given the possible repercussions if she repeats similar to other people and I can fully understand why he doesn’t want to be around her - at least for now. And for the future I really wouldn’t blame him for not wanting to be around her without another adult present, until he’s worked through his own feelings. There are some posters who seem to be overlooking the fact that he is the injured party here.

Unf my DCs’ teacher (was one of their form tutors), was charged with CSA (images) (and later convicted) when my DC were still in school. He was a very genial man, and DC was ‘lucky’ to have him as a form tutor according to older DC. Younger DC was absolutely gutted when he found - ‘can’t trust anyone’, etc etc.

Back to the OP. I agree with those who say you need to sit your dd down and explain why it’s such a serious allegation - you can’t say ‘peado’ in jest or even intimate it - make sure she really understands it can ruin someone, but of course if any adult is actually inappropriate then she needs to tell a trusted adult in a sensible manner. Crying wolf is not an option.

Once you’ve done that I’d speak to your brother, say you’ve spoken to his niece and that she is going to properly apologise and hope they can reconcile at some point.

How old is your brother? If he has immature enough to hold a grudge against a child he shouldn't be responsible for looking after a child.
What happened?

Still though. If it was true he would have told you first in order to play innocent. Not saying he's guilty- not at all- but I would find out why dd has been saying this before accusing her of lying. If your brother is a child molester it would be horrible if your dd was made to shut up and it would go on.

Personally I wouldn't let* *a male friend watch my young child no matter if he's gay or not.

The trouble though is that children retract disclosures when they see the repercussions in their family ALL THE TIME. Even when they are believed, let alone when they are met with fury and punishments. We don’t know what the brother said to her after she said what she said, and almost everyone on this thread is assuming the worst about her, before OP had even properly spoken to her (which she’s not going to be able to do now that her initial reaction has been what it was).

I've seen what she said now and yes it was terrible but she is a child. She needs to be made to understand how hurtful what she said was and how damaging it could be for your brother but I still think your brother is wrong to hold a grudge against a child. This needs tackling with education not resentment or punishment so she can fully understand the impact of her words your brother refusing to talk to her isn't the right approach.

Your brother shouldn't babysit her again. She could go on to make actual baseless accusations against him or someone else.

I think any adult would be pretty upset if a child in their care made up allegations about them being a pedo simply because their iPad was taken away.

What OPs child did was pretty unforgivable tbh. My DDs are around that age and they certainly know the damage those sorts of unfounded allegations can cause. It’s not being immature at all. The fact is those types of allegations, particularly from children, ruin lives.

It’s not a friend, it is her brother, their uncle, and you do seem to be implying he might be guilty. This is exactly the sort of thing that happens when people, kids or not, make accusations against gay men or any men for that matter. I know someone who lost custody of his kids because of a false accusation. It devastated him and cause him to have a breakdown. It was found to be entirely made up.

Regardless of if people think it was a comment off the cuff because every 11 year old says it, it doesn’t sound like she turned around and just used that one word’ the OP has said she said something about small boys, in particular the boy her Uncle looks after.
The OP has said her brother holds a grudge and it’s likely to cause friction in the wider family, as though that is almost an unreasonable consequence and I think what most are trying to point out is that he is absolutely entitled to be very wary about being around her without another adult present.
Im not sure he’ll ever truly get over it not because he himself is immature or is unforgiving but that the comment/statement, however she put it coming from someone who is has a good relationship with, regardless of the fact she is 11 is going to really hurt.
Children say unkind things, her unkind thing was targeted instead of calling him a shithead.
It doesn’t mean that her daughter is doomed to be a horrible person, it just means that unfortunately in her moment of frustration about screen time she has said something that to be fair, most people who aren’t a direct parent and have to love your child regardless would struggle to forgive and forget.
This isn’t playground banter with mates being idiotic this is a completely different environment aimed accurately at someone close to her.

You would never let your father or brother care for your child? That is extremely sad. What if they have a male teacher?

Agree. It’s just meeting nastiness with more nastiness and it doesn’t solve anything. I don’t think punishment is the most important thing here - it’s making sure that DD understands how hurtful her words were and how damaging they could be if repeated to others. The best thing OP can do here is have an open and age appropriate conversation about the meaning of the words DD used and why they’re so dangerous. DD needs to understand that it’s fine to speak up if there are genuine concerns, but that under no circumstances should these things be used as slurs or insults.

This is not an exaggeration. She really could ruin someone’s life. Given he’s the ‘fun uncle’, I’d be absolutely disgusted with her. Kids of that age know how awful that kind of comment is. I can’t imagine any of my Year 7s not understanding that this kind of comment is totally unacceptable.

Gosh, this is not just about an apology. A tonne of bricks springs to mind. You seem a little too laid back about this - it’s not a falling out, your daughter has articulated some very bigoted and extremely dangerous accusations and she must be made aware of the short and potential long term consequences of this, including damaging her own credibility.

This has been done to death. OP has explained multiple times the context in which this was said. DD has admitted he took away her IPad when her time limit ran out and she said it because she was angry.

And who is accusing DD of lying ? It isn’t a question of telling lies, it’s a question of her using dangerous words which could have serious repercussions on DB. You are yet another example on this thread as to why these situations are so dangerous. OP hasn’t said one word to suggest that this was anything but a spiteful child trying to get her own way, her DB has done nothing wrong, but the fact that a child has come out with the words is enough to raise suspicions.

Thank you for saying that it’s not the norm everywhere because apparently every 11 year old says it and if you think your child doesn’t you’re naive….
I think it’s scary that people are so accepting of that kind of language being thrown around.
I’m confident my 11 year old doesn’t go shouting it in the playground as an insult, not because I’m a perfect parent but because he doesn’t/didn’t hang around with the kids that made the ‘sex noises’ when that was a thing or find similar words funny, I know because especially when the noise thing was doing the rounds, he came home and asked me why people were doing it….

Your child is 11, yes not an appropriate thing to say at all from anyone however at 11 the put the break on before you speak part of the brain ( prefrontal cortex) is not formed fully and won’t be for many years and even as adults we can all be guilty of saying something in a moment of dysregulation that we instantly regret. How we respond after is important. Calmly explain how this is a hurtful and untrue comment , recognise it was a spur of the moment comment but has repercussions for the person - as any hurtful comment has. Unfortunately young people pick up phrases and comments from each other that they don’t a. Fully understand and b. Realise how serious they can be. This should be a learning experience for her, being too harsh in my mind will do nothing but increase the shame and close down any open conversations about this, fear and shame are not good teachers. Start with the curious, I’m curious why you said that particular phrase? I wonder what you think we should do about this ,I wonder how you’re feeling about this now, , I wonder how your uncle is feeling, I wonder what would help.
unfortunately for you you have to manage the emotions of both your child and your brother but if your brother is going to hold a comment a child made to them at 11 years old against them for years well that says more about them than the child. Yes he may be cautious around her going forward fine but hopefully he will also see the importance or repairing this relationship as up to now it sounds like it was a positive one. Not an easy job for you but I hope this all ends as positive as it can be for you all .

I imagine the DB will refuse to be the fun uncle to the OP’s other child as well.

If I were him I would ensure I didn’t look after any kids in the future. He has to protect himself - what’s to stop her saying it again to or about him and being taken seriously?

That’s interesting because I know more than one person who didn’t lose custody even though they done what their child had said as like all sexual allegations they are very difficult to prove and children are not considered reliable witnesses. Because they do things like, saying they didn’t mean it or it didn’t really happen when they see how upset everyone gets.

Of course many will say it is a ‘teaching moment’ as if an 11 yo doesn’t understand the implications of calling someone that.

She said it out of pure spite but things like that stick.

Well it is a question of lying isn’t it, because they wouldn’t be “dangerous words that could have serious repercussions” if they were true.

ETA I’d also like to point out that there is less than a handful of posters on this thread saying similar to me, and we’re all
saying have a proper conversation before making ANY assumptions instead of jumping on calling the DD names and doling out punishments for something you’re assuming isn’t true.

It’s up to OP to educate her child, not her brother. He has every right to be hurt and angry and to stay away from her until he’s sorted out how he feels. What she said is a homophobic trope and this won’t be the first time he’s heard it, but it’s different coming from someone you love, regardless of age. He also needs to decide how he’s going to handle things going forward because every time he’s alone with DD he’s at risk, and now he knows it.