The invasion continues - Thread No.4

[ChimChimeny]

Following the previous (2? 3?) Threads

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4492641-The-Invasion-Has-Stalled

Alondra

this war has nothing to do with Putin

Utter, incorrect rubbish.

This is Putin's war.

It is sad that a serious and informative set of threads has been infiltrated by the PutinBots, SWC-ites and false equivalence hand-wringers.

Shame on you and your ilk 'Alondra' Shame on you. You disgust me.

Am off to check for messages from my Russian speaking relatives in Ukraine. The horror thankfully doesn't really seem to have reached Dnipro yet.

If they act up and say they are fearful for the future and are concerned for their friends in Kharkiv, I'll pass on 'well, yes, Yemen' to them.

@Alondra

allRedToothBrush

My previous post was a fail in quoting you. Way too long and difficult to navigate.

My response...

You just seem to think wars are in a vaccuum. I'm not NATO, I'm not Spain or Australia. What exactly does this mean?

Like you I believe in the concept of liberal democracies, unlike you I don't think they are possible . We live in a world controlled by powers beyond what we chose in a ballot box. Day in and day out we see scandal after scandal of what our very "democratic" leaders get up to, they don't give a shit to ordinary people, bills, housing, health, standard of living....they keep investing billions in arms while they can't protect citizens because those billions invested in arms have to be deducted from local social policies.

I detest what Russia is doing to people in the Ukraine but unlike you I can't forget what the West has done to millions in the ME, Asia and Africa. We cant just simply forget the awful images of todlers killed in Palestinian occupied terroritories by Israeli rockets just because it's not what the press in our countries wants to talk about for the fear of being antisemitic.

War is awful, it kills people ...it displaces them. But unless we accept we live in awful discriminatory and predatory societies with governments that are as bad as Putin because they've always targetted those with less while supporting money and business including invading countries. Countries that never attacked us or possed a thread to us but our own multinationals had plenty to gain to get free access into those countries' resources.

If you really think what Putin is doing is different to what the US with the West support has been doing in the Middle East and lately Yemen is different from this war, you've lost your social conciousness.

Posting about this war should not be about how awful Putin is, he's a sociopath...ect etc. If you, like me, cares about people and geopolitical truth, this war has nothing to do with Putin or Biden, it's about the 2 biggest nations with nuclear armament fighting about about resources control.

It's got nothing to do with "democracy".

Erm... Ok then.

You rant to your little hearts content there...

pats on hand

And im not going to engage further with Putin Apologists regardless of whatever you want to say about me or imply I think.

I don't think it's wrong OR me me me

@dreamingbohemian

Ok this is a really fascinating thread on Twitter:

twitter.com/sbreakintl/status/1498619303717142529?s=20&t=GidybKgvAdzkAtua_NbdSw

Not only because it shows how ordinary people can collect intel these days but because it suggests a staggering level of absolute shitshow for at least some Russian forces. It would explain a lot.

That’s a very interesting read, thanks for posting.

Pats head even!

@continu
"these are white blue eyed europeans, these are europeans like us"

That's awful - where have you seen that?

@DuncinToffee

Kyiv Post *@KyivPost*

The European Parliament has approved Ukraine's application to join the European Union.

A special admission procedure has been launched.

Voting will take place at 16:30

Doesn't that just mean they are granted candidate status rather than admitted to the EU?

@DuncinToffee

Is there any truth in this?

@nicktolhurst
+UPDATE+

Multiple (& increasing) reports of Russian soldiers deserting and "walking back to Russia on foot".

Not just individually but in groups.

If reports like this are true, why on earth are they heading back to Russia? Surely desertion means absolute hell for you/your family once you “admit” that you’ve deserted?

@dreamingbohemian

Ok this is a really fascinating thread on Twitter:

twitter.com/sbreakintl/status/1498619303717142529?s=20&t=GidybKgvAdzkAtua_NbdSw

Not only because it shows how ordinary people can collect intel these days but because it suggests a staggering level of absolute shitshow for at least some Russian forces. It would explain a lot.

Wow, fascinating

Anyone see the Ukraine journalist tearful appeal to Johnson? she called him a coward, broken promises by NATO..

She also raised points that BJ didn't answer... Russian mansions, kids in schools, children living here and in Europe... haven't these been taken? bank accounts frozen? no?

Pretty weak of him & Patel to say there are security concerns against allowing Ukrainians here, its not like Russian agents haven't been able to walk in before plus with a 6month non visa stay allowed from Europe, its a red herring and just more xenophobia from our Govt.

I wonder what Putin will do if Ukraine is officially accepted. I know we have to stand up to bullies but this does seem like provocation that perhaps isn’t necessary right now? how does it change things for Ukraine if it is voted in? Sorry if I’m being dim.

@TokyoSushi can't see as no Twitter would you be able to give a brief summary please, sounds interesting...

Doesn't that just mean they are granted candidate status rather than admitted to the EU?

Yes, that's how I read it.
Their application is being considered under an accelerated procedure but they aren't automatically admitted.

@NewModelArmyMayhem18

Does it make a difference (short-term) if Ukraine is approved to join the EU today?

Ukraine has asked to join the EU immediately with the support of Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Letonia, Lituania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia.

It won't happen.

Ukraine continues to fail to meet one of the essential criteria for accession to the EU - "stable institutions that guarantee the rule of law." The country does not meet that condition because of what a 2021 report from the European Union's Court of Auditors defined as "grand corruption."

This document recalls that the EU has been supporting reforms in Ukraine for more than 20 years, including the fight against corruption, defined as a "major obstacle" that "goes against the values of the EU". According to article 2 of the Treaty of the Union, to be a member, a country has to respect those values.

"Grand corruption" is "endemic" in Ukraine, and "in addition to hampering competition and growth, it harms the democratic process," says the document, which even alludes to the "capture of the state" by "blocs made up of powerful political and economic elites, pyramidal in structure and rooted in all public institutions and the economy".

Ukraine's aspirations also run into - like those of other Eastern European states - resistance from members such as France and the Netherlands, in favor of slowing down the entry of new members to the community club and giving priority to "deepen and improve our Europe", in the words of the French president, Emmanuel Macron, in 2018

elpais.com/internacional/2022-03-01/guerra-rusia-ucrania-ultima-hora-del-conflicto-en-directo.html#1646136632-6028091d8cd4fcc77ecac19cede77cee#1#843

Oh crikey. Whilst part of me thinks good on them re: joining the EU - surely Putin will respond to this? Who will be seen as in the firing line?

Russia wants to create a new Russian Empire. That is what this is about.
There is a lot of whatabouttery on this thread. Yes other countries have wars. Yes other countries abuse human rights.
The idea that we can't respond to what is happening now is used to try and defuse public opposition from Iraq, to Afghanistan to now Ukraine.
Every single time we get the whatabouttery.
It is just another way of saying STFU.

@youhadmeatjello

I wonder what Putin will do if Ukraine is officially accepted. I know we have to stand up to bullies but this does seem like provocation that perhaps isn’t necessary right now? how does it change things for Ukraine if it is voted in? Sorry if I’m being dim.

Lots of pps have asked this. Seems a reasonable question.

[quote HelpMeHiveMind]@TokyoSushi can't see as no Twitter would you be able to give a brief summary please, sounds interesting...[/quote]
It's a thread showing how mainly Ukrainian civilian radio enthusiasts are able to listen to the Russian military radio and sometimes block/jam their lines. It also explains that what they're hearing is pretty much chaos.

@LampLighter414 you sound incredibly anxious if the thoughts and feelings are preventing you from doing your normal work.

I had some therapy for anxiety/depression a year or so ago and saved some useful worksheets. Perhaps have a look at answering these questions, which I've copied, and see if it helps you to reassess things a bit:

1. Situation / Trigger - What happened? Where? When? Who with? How?

1. Feelings Emotions – (Rate 0 – 100%) - What emotion did I feel at that time? What else? How intense was it? What did I notice in my body? Where did I feel it? Body sensations

1. Unhelpful Thoughts / Images - What went through my mind? What disturbed me? What did those houghts/images/memories mean to me, or say about me or the situation? What am I responding to?

What ‘button’ is this pressing for me? What would be the worst thing about that, or that could happen?

1. Facts that support the unhelpful thought - What are the facts? What facts do I have that the unhelpful thought/s are totally true?

1. Facts that provide evidence against the unhelpful thought - What facts do I have that the unhelpful thought/s are NOT totally true? Is it possible that this is opinion, rather than fact? What have others said about this?

1. Alternative, more realistic and balanced perspective - What would someone else say about this situation? What’s the bigger picture? Is there another way of seeing it? What advice would I give someone else? Is my reaction in proportion to the actual event? Is this really as important as it seems?

1. Outcome Re-rate emotion - What am I feeling now? (0-100%) What could I do differently? What would be more effective? Do what works! Act wisely. What will be most helpful for me or the situation? What will the consequences be?

Also have a look at this website which discusses unhelpful thinking habits like catastrophizing: www.getselfhelp.co.uk/unhelpful.htm

@Alexandra2001

Anyone see the Ukraine journalist tearful appeal to Johnson? she called him a coward, broken promises by NATO..

She also raised points that BJ didn't answer... Russian mansions, kids in schools, children living here and in Europe... haven't these been taken? bank accounts frozen? no?

Pretty weak of him & Patel to say there are security concerns against allowing Ukrainians here, its not like Russian agents haven't been able to walk in before plus with a 6month non visa stay allowed from Europe, its a red herring and just more xenophobia from our Govt.

From the book of Tory: verses 20:10 - 20:22

RedToothBrush

Calling me a Putin apologist, that I was ranting and being patronising with with your pats instead of addressing my post is your choice.

@LampLighter414

I don't know why I'm getting stick for acknowledging I'm an empath and other people's emotions and situations engulf me.

A 40 mile column of tanks and Putin setting his nukes ready to be fired in a situation where he dies! That is scary!

Honestly I'm struggling to even reply to work emails today. It's so scary. I'm shaking. I'm trying to not watch the news but its just on every tv show and all over social media. Really tempted to tell my boss I can't work properly and say I've been sleeping bad or something.

And empath not having the empathy to know why posters are upset! Love it!

@LampLighter414 most of the world is upset at the moment. And yes most are upset as you!

I have done about 3 emails and the rest of the time reading for updates and searching the web.

@ClaudineClare

Honestly I'm struggling to even reply to work emails today. It's so scary. I'm shaking. I'm trying to not watch the news but its just on every tv show and all over social media. Really tempted to tell my boss I can't work properly and say I've been sleeping bad or something

As an empath, can you not put yourself in the shoes of the Ukrainians who are in fear of their lives and realise how very lucky you are to be in the UK right now?

Some of our Ukrainian clients are going into their offices and working, trying to figure out how they will meet their debt obligations etc. It's stressful but it's not about you.

Thank you so much for that explanation @Alondra.

I see that you cite an El Pais article. Wasn't someone suggesting that Spain had been incredibly quiet in all this crisis?

[quote Scianel]@Alondra I appreciate your contributions to this thread, these are all issues I've thought long and hard about myself.[/quote]
I second this.