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The invasion continues - Thread No.4

999 replies

ChimChimeny · 28/02/2022 17:48

Following the previous (2? 3?) Threads

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4492641-The-Invasion-Has-Stalled

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
ChardonnaysPetDragon · 01/03/2022 12:46

What's this "Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine" is that similar to Prime Minister?

Speaker of the parliament.

ClaudineClare · 01/03/2022 12:47

[quote WeAreTheHeroes]@ClaudineClare - the nuclear weapons which were in Ukraine were Russian/Soviet nuclear weapons the Ukrainians did not have control over. It was negotiated that those weapons would be removed rather than Ukraine being given control over them. So Ukraine didn't give up its nuclear weapons in the sense you probably think it did.[/quote]
Thanks. I was right about my understanding being simplistic!

dreamingbohemian · 01/03/2022 12:47

@ClaudineClare

Sadly, I agree with you Vera and Stormzy. But did the West not agree to protect Ukraine when it gave up its nuclear weapons? Maybe my understanding is too simplistic, but I can understand the feeling of betrayal.
This is a good explainer of the Budapest Memorandum:

www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2019/12/05/why-care-about-ukraine-and-the-budapest-memorandum/

'In the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the United States, Russia, and Britain committed “to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine” and “to refrain from the threat or use of force” against the country. Those assurances played a key role in persuading the Ukrainian government in Kyiv to give up what amounted to the world’s third largest nuclear arsenal, consisting of some 1,900 strategic nuclear warheads.'

'Washington did not promise unlimited support. The Budapest Memorandum contains security “assurances,” not “guarantees.” Guarantees would have implied a commitment of American military force, which NATO members have. U.S. officials made clear that was not on offer. Hence, assurances.'

dreamingbohemian · 01/03/2022 12:50

[quote workisnotawolf]@dreamingbohemian - I wonder what would happen if EU offered all Russian soldiers in Ukraine refugee status and safe passage…
I suspect some might be worried about family left back in Russia, but plenty would go for it.[/quote]
Yesterday the Ukrainian defence minister offered all Russian soldiers amnesty + 5 million rubles if they would surrender.

Not that 5 million rubles is worth as much as it used to...

HeadPain · 01/03/2022 12:50

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

What's this "Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine" is that similar to Prime Minister?

Speaker of the parliament.

What, like our Lindsay Hoyle /John Bercow? Surely not?
LampLighter414 · 01/03/2022 12:51

I don't know why I'm getting stick for acknowledging I'm an empath and other people's emotions and situations engulf me.

A 40 mile column of tanks and Putin setting his nukes ready to be fired in a situation where he dies! That is scary!

Honestly I'm struggling to even reply to work emails today. It's so scary. I'm shaking. I'm trying to not watch the news but its just on every tv show and all over social media. Really tempted to tell my boss I can't work properly and say I've been sleeping bad or something.

Scianel · 01/03/2022 12:54

I don't know why I'm getting stick for acknowledging I'm an empath and other people's emotions and situations engulf me

Bluntly, because it's a very me-me-me reaction to other people's suffering.

DuncinToffee · 01/03/2022 12:54

Kyiv Post @KyivPost

The European Parliament has approved Ukraine's application to join the European Union.

A special admission procedure has been launched.

Voting will take place at 16:30

Bellalastrasse · 01/03/2022 12:55

@DuncinToffee. Anyone likely to block it?

ChimChimeny · 01/03/2022 12:56

Just wanted to let you all know that I'm behind on the thread today and probably won't be caught up by the time we get to 20 pages so hopefully someone else can set up thread 5 please.

I don't think it matters who does it, but it was a good shout at the start of this one to link the previous threads in the OP.

OP posts:
dreamingbohemian · 01/03/2022 12:58

Ok this is a really fascinating thread on Twitter:

twitter.com/sbreakintl/status/1498619303717142529?s=20&t=GidybKgvAdzkAtua_NbdSw

Not only because it shows how ordinary people can collect intel these days but because it suggests a staggering level of absolute shitshow for at least some Russian forces. It would explain a lot.

Alondra · 01/03/2022 12:58

allRedToothBrush

My previous post was a fail in quoting you. Way too long and difficult to navigate.

My response...

You just seem to think wars are in a vaccuum. I'm not NATO, I'm not Spain or Australia. What exactly does this mean?

Like you I believe in the concept of liberal democracies, unlike you I don't think they are possible . We live in a world controlled by powers beyond what we chose in a ballot box. Day in and day out we see scandal after scandal of what our very "democratic" leaders get up to, they don't give a shit to ordinary people, bills, housing, health, standard of living....they keep investing billions in arms while they can't protect citizens because those billions invested in arms have to be deducted from local social policies.

I detest what Russia is doing to people in the Ukraine but unlike you I can't forget what the West has done to millions in the ME, Asia and Africa. We cant just simply forget the awful images of todlers killed in Palestinian occupied terroritories by Israeli rockets just because it's not what the press in our countries wants to talk about for the fear of being antisemitic.

War is awful, it kills people ...it displaces them. But unless we accept we live in awful discriminatory and predatory societies with governments that are as bad as Putin because they've always targetted those with less while supporting money and business including invading countries. Countries that never attacked us or possed a thread to us but our own multinationals had plenty to gain to get free access into those countries' resources.

If you really think what Putin is doing is different to what the US with the West support has been doing in the Middle East and lately Yemen is different from this war, you've lost your social conciousness.

Posting about this war should not be about how awful Putin is, he's a sociopath...ect etc. If you, like me, cares about people and geopolitical truth, this war has nothing to do with Putin or Biden, it's about the 2 biggest nations with nuclear armament fighting about about resources control.

It's got nothing to do with "democracy".

ClaudineClare · 01/03/2022 12:59

Honestly I'm struggling to even reply to work emails today. It's so scary. I'm shaking. I'm trying to not watch the news but its just on every tv show and all over social media. Really tempted to tell my boss I can't work properly and say I've been sleeping bad or something

As an empath, can you not put yourself in the shoes of the Ukrainians who are in fear of their lives and realise how very lucky you are to be in the UK right now?

MMBaranova · 01/03/2022 13:01

Thanks. I was right about my understanding being simplistic!

Well not really. As WeAreTheHeroes makes clear Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons that it didn't have the top level control of that Russia retained as the SU collapsed. So a day after deciding to NOT give them up they could not be used. 30+ years later? Another thing entirely.

DuncinToffee · 01/03/2022 13:02

[quote Bellalastrasse]@DuncinToffee. Anyone likely to block it?[/quote]
I don't know.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 01/03/2022 13:03

What, like our Lindsay Hoyle /John Bercow? Surely not?

Yea, Rada is the parliament.

Igotjelly · 01/03/2022 13:03

@LampLighter414

I don't know why I'm getting stick for acknowledging I'm an empath and other people's emotions and situations engulf me.

A 40 mile column of tanks and Putin setting his nukes ready to be fired in a situation where he dies! That is scary!

Honestly I'm struggling to even reply to work emails today. It's so scary. I'm shaking. I'm trying to not watch the news but its just on every tv show and all over social media. Really tempted to tell my boss I can't work properly and say I've been sleeping bad or something.

This sounds like the way my anxiety manifests from time to time. I do agree that we should be focussing on the plight of the Ukrainian people but also acknowledge that the rolling bad news cycle is taking a toll on many people with poor mental health.

For what it’s worth various nuclear deterrent experts are saying that Putin has only increased the readiness marginally, this is not a full on armed and ready to go scenario.

Damnloginpopup · 01/03/2022 13:04

@ChimChimeny

Just wanted to let you all know that I'm behind on the thread today and probably won't be caught up by the time we get to 20 pages so hopefully someone else can set up thread 5 please.

I don't think it matters who does it, but it was a good shout at the start of this one to link the previous threads in the OP.

I'm back on it...unless it runs past bedtime this afternoon (Nightshift)
RedToothBrush · 01/03/2022 13:05

The average Russian conscript is young, poorly paid, poorly trained, poorly fed. He's being asked to fight people who look and sound like his own people, he may even be part Ukrainian (there are a huge number of Ukrainian-Russian families). He's being asked to target cities and civilian targets. It's really not surprising if there are a lot of desertions.

Not poorly trained. Untrained in many cases.
Not poorly fed. Unfed in many cases due to the logistics. Those that are getting rations if they are the best before end 2015 rations as is being suggested on social media, its hardly going to do any good.
Poorly paid? Well given whats just happened to the rouble they may well not get paid.

Plus they will be hearing lots of rumours in Ukraine. Civilians who aren't fighting them may be showing them social media which isn't filtered. Given the peaceful protests going on, thats a real possibility. And tbh the peaceful protests themselves much be pretty something. It adds to the sense of 'what the fuck am i doing here'.

There are also reports of marine refusing to assault Odessa.

My thought with this is partly that it could still be isolated incidents but also good propaganda. And there is the phenomenon of when one starts to do something and others start to see it, they follow suit and the whole thing becomes a chain reaction you can't stop.

There has been some suggestion that the reason the convoy into Kyiv is so slow is because of abandoned vehicles and desertation.

I do find it interesting that Putin ordered in Chechen fighters and requested Belarus support Russia. Why does the Russian army need this help?

I think we will see fairly quickly if a pattern does emerge on this and this is more than a few incidents.

When your army starts to mutiny, it is game over for any dictator because their strength is based on its strength and fear of it.

If the army flees, the people will get ideas of revolution.

But as it stands, its FAR too early to suggest this is anything more than a couple of incidents but the conditions are definitely rife for it.

And it would explain the lack of air cover too, if the airforce is already rebelling...

Natsku · 01/03/2022 13:06

@CallyfromBlakes7

Phew, good time to leave if they are close to conscription age

Yes. I was just reading a story about someone who went to visit her parents in Russia because she is no longer of conscription age, but had difficulties getting out because of the closure of airspace. Eventually she got out via Istanbul and then Amsterdam (she lives in Brussels). But Putin has changed the age limit on conscription so she was lucky to get out.

Lucky escape there. I wouldn't be surprised if Putin cancels university exemptions for conscription too so might be some students wanting to leave too.
yoolia · 01/03/2022 13:06

I do agree that we should be focussing on the plight of the Ukrainian people but also acknowledge that the rolling bad news cycle is taking a toll on many people with poor mental health.

I agree. Can you imagine if the Cuban missile crisis had been covered by a rolling 24 hour news cycle with minute by minute updates.

NewModelArmyMayhem18 · 01/03/2022 13:07

Does it make a difference (short-term) if Ukraine is approved to join the EU today?

Igotjelly · 01/03/2022 13:11

@yoolia

I do agree that we should be focussing on the plight of the Ukrainian people but also acknowledge that the rolling bad news cycle is taking a toll on many people with poor mental health.

I agree. Can you imagine if the Cuban missile crisis had been covered by a rolling 24 hour news cycle with minute by minute updates.

Funny I said this to DH last night. We live in an age where every news outlet is trying to be more sensationalist and scare than the next in order to keep viewers/readers. Whilst this is undoubtedly horrendous and scary I do sometimes have to just step away from it for a moment, look at the sun shining outside and listen to the birds and remind myself that all is not lost.
StormzyinaTCup · 01/03/2022 13:11

@DuncinToffee

Kyiv Post *@KyivPost*

The European Parliament has approved Ukraine's application to join the European Union.

A special admission procedure has been launched.

Voting will take place at 16:30

Quick question on this, what happens if the application to let Ukraine is voted through under a special admission procedure and Russia then take Ukraine?

I hope the EU have plenty of caveats in place. The EU are not known for acting speedily and so I hope this doesn't open up a whole can of other worms. Act in haste repent at leisure springs to mind.

Newrunner29 · 01/03/2022 13:13

@LampLighter414

I don't know why I'm getting stick for acknowledging I'm an empath and other people's emotions and situations engulf me.

A 40 mile column of tanks and Putin setting his nukes ready to be fired in a situation where he dies! That is scary!

Honestly I'm struggling to even reply to work emails today. It's so scary. I'm shaking. I'm trying to not watch the news but its just on every tv show and all over social media. Really tempted to tell my boss I can't work properly and say I've been sleeping bad or something.

I don't think its wrong for me me me to acknowledged anxiety about the current situation. I think it's quite normal . Obviously if it's affecting ur work then u may need extra support. But I have been struggling with it. I have adhd and hyper focus on things and world event over lats few years seemed to be the things I do! I've been struggling to sleep and the 24 hour news cycle and social media in this has made it worse. I wish u well