Embarrassed after last night

Please don’t bring your kids to nice restaurants, people pay lots of money for their meal and expect a nice time x

You do realise that young children all have different personalities and it is probably down to luck that your 4 year old sits like a little adult through all her meals rather than you being a superior parent like you think you are.

Maybe your next one will be a hell raiser!

It saddens me that kids these days have to be given ipads in order to keep them quiet when they are out and about. How on earth did parents manage it before the arrival of such devices? I seem to remember engaging with my young kids, including them in the table conversation, giving them a stern look if they were overstepping the mark, taking them out of the situation if their behaviour became a problem (which in fact it rarely if ever did).

I try not to put them in situations where perfect behaviour is expected.

This is where your problem is. They are easily old enough to be expected to behave and stay sitting at the table even without an Ipad. I've never allowed Ipads at the table. They sit down and join in the conversation with the adults. It does mean that you have to keep the talk child appropriate and you end up having to explain things to them but it does them good to join in with grown up topics. If I don't want to interact with them I just don't take them.

Its just something they get used to. They don't behave like that at school, they sit down quietly there because they know its expected. Take them to these places more often and be clear about expectations beforehand. Really lay it out for them.

My nephew has ADHD so we usually pick places with a play area if we're taking him and tell him before we go, what we expect. 'You come to the table with us, sit down and pick what you want to eat and drink. Then you can go out to the playground and I'll call you in when your food arrives, you stay at the table and chat with us while you eat. Once everyone is finished eating, you can choose a dessert then you can go out again if you want until it arrives. Once we've eaten that then we'll get ready to go.'

It seems to work.

Don't be too hard on yourself. My two are both quite quiet kids, and people often comment on how well behaved they are, but I would absolutely not have taken them to a "nice" restaurant at 3 and 4. It would have been miserable for them and us (and a waste of money!). In fact we didn't have our first proper family dinner in a restaurant until they were 6 and 7. At those ages they were just old enough to sit and chat, do some colouring, play I Spy (with colours not letters) and actually join in and enjoy the meal. And even then we kept it to main and dessert and got garlic bread they could nibble on while they waited. Once we got to that stage we practicised eating out regularly. We didn't usually do screens at the table but if they had to wait a long time for food they watched Bluey on one of our phones. Now at 9 and 10 they're little pros. I think it's unreasonable to expect preschoolers to behave perfectly in a restuarant, especially high energy kids. I also think the ratio of adults matters. My friends with one child seemed to get to that stage earlier.

Please don't beat yourself up- your children are still really young! My child was exactly the same at age 3/4 but now at 8 has brilliant table manners. Just took time and a lot of work (including engaging with them a lot over dinner). The fact you are messaging on here means you care which means you'll instill the right behaviours and they'll get there. It is very tiring at the beginning (and not much fun as obviously you want to socialize but you end up having to constantly parent etc). My biggest tip is try and drop the ipad. My friends that used it for their kids as a sort of pacifier during big dinners out have found that while it may have shut their kids up, it actually meant they never really learnt the social skills expected at a table. I think most people will be completely tolerant of little kids unable to sit still (as long as the parent is making an effort), that patience wanes a lot when the child is 10 or 12 etc.

I think this happens a lot with some families because their children are not included with the grownups often ? You say yourself they don’t have meals out . Maybe you need to try and take them out every week , even if a cheaper restaurant ? It’s the same with kids on flights .
Your kids just didn’t know what to expect or behave accordingly. So practise will help .
do not beat yourself up those are hard ages too , just take steps to change it

Right. And what about the 13 other children in the extended family (there’s a lot of children of cousins that we eat out with at times). Is that just luck then? Or is it that we aren’t lazy parents? We worked at it, we actively parent. It takes effort.

Using iPads is inferior lazy parenting. It just is. Were you raised by an iPad too? Or are you the sort that sits buried in their own phone so you think it is fine. Sounds like it.

It is not luck that I am raising an intelligent, empathic, kind child with good social skills. It is effort. It is modeling excellent behaviour, it is taking them
to restaurants, theatres, galleries, museums, family occasions, public venues and showing them what to do. It is the role our nursery plays, the extended family plays, the community we live in plays.

It has absolutely fuck all to do with luck.

I would expect their parents to keep them entertained enough that they’re not running around the restaurant and screaming though. Colouring, sticker books, small toys, blocks, going for a walk outside between courses… there’s tons of ways to manage a toddler’s behaviour in a restaurant.

Some could just be personality. My dd would have happily and sat and coloured or put stickers in a book.
Some is probably down to lack of practice. Start taking them to places where they are expected to sit on bum and be quiet. Obviously age appropriate not hours but expectation you sit. Museums, library story time, Carol concert, theatre.
Instead of always iPad how about appropriate toys in a bag for restaurants. So top trumps cards, mine liked wiki sticks they were sort of pipe cleaner things you bent into shapes eg make some glasses for grandad.
I definitely think some is expectation. Not oh they are little it doesn’t matter. Start when small and build up.

I don't agree with iPads at the dinner table, why can't you play a game, do a jigsaw, colouring?
Gosh I've played so many rounds of rock, paper scissors!
Kids are not there to be seen and not heard. They were also invited to this meal, your kids sound bored because everyone expected them to just sit still and watch an iPad.

Did you take anything other than an iPad for entertainment?

They should not be running round and interrupting other dinners but they need to be engaged with.

With my DCs it was practice, practice, practice plus managing expectations.

DH (SAHP) regularly took DCs shopping. He described it as training for holidays.

If we went anywhere eg zoo, museum we would explain the 'rules' such as how long we would stay, not visiting the gift shop (very important for DS especially).

At the end of a trip that had gone okay we would say 'well done everyone'. We still do it now and the DCs are all in their 20s and flying the nest!

I think what has hit home with Op is difference between hers and the children’s peers.
It’s often very noticeable in a group setting.

What? What difference does it make if they play a game or do colouring on an iPad or the old fashioned way. Technology is not something to fear. And few restaurant tables have space for a jigsaw of all things.

and playing rock paper scissors is fairly shit over dinner and can only go so long.

Please tell me all these iPads were muted or the kids wore headphones.

Me too. I do it with my brownies and guides now.

For me it's the number of families you see out "as a family" with kids on tablets and parents on phones all ignoring each other. With "old fashioned" toys / colouring / talking to each other, it's the interaction, if my 3yo is colouring on paper I can see it and discuss, if he's on a tablet, you can't see and interact unless you're at the right angle and up in his face, plus the screen does something to his brain and he doesn't want to tear himself away and interact, then when he does he is overstimulated and angry. Yes we're probably that annoying family with a loud 3yo, and a feral 1yo but they are corrected / redirected when they play up, they enjoy social interactions and want to learn how to behave. I'd LOVE to go to a posh restaurant and have grown up conversations, but I chose to have children so I go to child friendly restaurants and interact with my children while they are young enough to want to do so

Playing games and colouring requires thought and creativity, watching endless episodes of Peppa Pig on an ipad is a passive activity with limited opportunities for expressing thoughts, creativity or any sort of interaction.

The difference is, her kids were clearly bored of the iPad hence not watching them and running round instead. Therefore, try something different!

Well sure, no need to state the obvious, but iPads do a lot more than show episodes of peppa pig. 🤨You can draw, do games, do colouring , read, do quizzes, create films, even do jigsaws etc, my question was why is it better on a piece of paper than on an iPad to colour or play a game. Arguably the iPad gives you lots more options and degrees of complexity.

Were you both sitting beside your kids? One each? That’s the first rule I think in keeping them engaged, to talk to them, to bring them into conversation, to distract if getting antsy and to ultimately take outside if becoming irritating/irritated at staying still.
Otherwise it’s practise and children who eat out a lot will be more conditioned to stay at their seats irrespective of what the practise is at home.
They are young, it’s something to work on.

Lastly, girls are often happy with drawing for quite a bit longer than boys. Ipads will actually only work for a short space of time, it’s a passive activity. Think about 3D activities they can quietly do that will engage their attention for longer. My sister used to always bring a brand new Lego set or similar to big family dinners. A light cardboard robot was a particular favourite. The pieces slotted together at angles and the whole thing fit inside an A5 envelope, very simple and effective. It has the added benefit that adults are often quite keen to “help” and admire.

Just a little reminder that not all of us want our children on iPads during a meal, however my 2nd child has misaphonia and can't stand the sound of chewing. Unfortunately it means we can't really go out for meals as a family anymore but on the odd occasion we might need to, she has a screen with headphones to drown out the sound of chewing.
It is only while we are eating but I really hate thinking we are being judged because of her condition.

She is perfectly capable of sitting at a table though but we drilled those manners into her at a young age, start slowly and build up op they are still little they will get there if you keep trying.

In this situation you shouldn't be giving your child an iPad if you want them to be involved in the meal and to watch the social norms involved in it. If your child is engrossed in an electronic device it is not involved in conversation and not learning how to model the behaviour the adults around them are showing. It's a device you give to kids to make sure they are 'seen but not heard'. They are solo devices. You can colour on an iPad but if you have a colouring book on a table other adults can join in, there's conversation about the picture, the colours, laughter about getting the colours inside the lines - there's interaction an iPad can't give. Surely you must see this.

Yeah, I’m sure most little kids are actually reading Harry Potter novels and then recreating the films on their ipads and not watching cbeebies at all while mummy and daddy are ignoring them at dinner.

Exactly right.