Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 3

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5548369-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-2

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

My dh uses the term intersex (occasionally, he normally uses his precise condition) but in his case this is because he was brought up with the term intersex and his specific condition makes that change of description harder to understand and remember. He does acknowledge he is 100% male despite that 2nd x.

"AL it is associating GC people with genocide
ED it is associating GC views, not individuals
AL did you make that clear?
ED we're not allowed to comment"

I don't know about you lot, but I'm convinced. No way she intended anything by retweeting a contentious publication on the AG network socials. It's akshually meant to help those people who fell in with those awful types, poor lambs. What a lucky occasion that retweeting only the publication couldn't be considered meta-commentary or agreement.

it's too early in the session for eyerolls this big

Edited only for line break clarity

It’s interesting the J has confirmed the ET is being recorded. I wonder if that’s a lesson learned by NC from SP.

AL taking ED to bundle docs,
[bundle shuffling]
ED okay
AL I understand that these are from the AG survey, are these the only pages
ED these are the pages that we put up on our website, there's raw data in a vault somewhere
AL the 3 qs, the only qs asked
ED yes
AL do you accept that they are leading qs
ED no
AL if you ask a T or I person about whether they think that the prop that sex is binary and immutable, well you are asking a closed shop, you can guess what they might say
ED we're asking them if the expression of GC views is harassment
AL the nature of survey, doesn't allow for any qualitative data, does it
ED it is in the comments on the next page AL it is selected comments,
ED of course selected, raw data in a vault, I can get it for you
AL we are beyond supplemental bundles

Calling one's self 'intersex' really increases one' social capital and worth with the trans side of things doesn't it? You are an 'extra extra' special person because you, and you alone, prove that sex is not binary. (I know sex is binary, but in the world of trans anything is spun any which way and this is a doozy through their eyes).

ED we have full members and we have ally members, allies are friends family loved ones supporters

Hang on, am I understanding this right: it's a DEFRA/civil service workplace group, but 'friends family loved ones supporters' can join?
That doesn't seem right - for any workplace group.

ED of course selected, raw data in a vault, I can get it for you
AL we are beyond supplemental bundles

Alex Line ( AL) is fully in control here.

AL the people answering these questions...
ED they are intersectional feminists
AL what does that mean
ED they are people who include trans non binary in their feminism
AL of course they expressed these views, you knew what their answers would be

In that video linked on here before she does say she was diagnosed at 14 but then the diagnosis was 'hidden' from her.
She then elaborates they told her she had non-functional gonads and needs to take HRT but still hid 'the truth' about her condition.
I interpret that 'truth' to be that she is a special snowflake whose existence restructures our knowledge about human nature, rather than just being a regular person with a medical issue.

No it’s a CS wide group and it’s open to non-CS. Although a lot of the CS do have partners, parents, children who are also CS. This is particularly relevant in the Regions where CS has often located offices in historically areas of low employment opportunities to provide employment.

AL I understand that these are from the AG survey, are these the only pages
ED these are the pages that we put up on our website, there's raw data in a vault somewhere

Were the 'allies' i.e. friends/families/supporters, allowed to take part in this survey?

You see, that's what I find 'off' about a workplace group including outsiders.

Very good point.

Yes, excellent to use the word "orthodoxy". The supposedly unorthodox and progressive ,but insistence on it just makes it the new orthodox.

There are knickers getting in a right old post-modernist twist here. When I studied for an arts degree we used post modernist thought and there was a lot of defining terms in context. Fine for something like music or art but applying it to biology, even with all it's odd corners and behaviours, just wasn't on the cards and we'd have thought it completely bonkers.

Bludgeoning everyone into submission with the One True Definition that all must bow down to, and if you don't you are a bigot committing genocide, to is really not how you are supposed to go about it!

If peoples personal stuff prevents them from engaging in debate about the definition of terms in a politicised context then I would sugges that is a them problem. after all women get accused of weaponising their trauma if we introduce our personal experience.

AL the people answering these questions... ED they are intersectional feminists
AL what does that mean
ED they are people who include trans non binary in their feminism
AL of course they expressed these views, you knew what their answers would be
ED no we didn't, we could have had a survey where everyone was fine with GC views in the workplace
AL how many of respondents were in DEFRA or RPA
ED don't know
AL how many members do you have in DEFRA or RPA
ED don't know
J they would have to be civil servants.....
ED the rules have recently changed
J under the rules at the time
ED some public servants could join
AL moving back to your witness statement, discussing AG, we are single xgov body, other networks operate the same, you seem to be suggesting that there is something wrong about

we are beyond supplemental bundles
T-shirt please, size M😁

Careful, it’s the easiest thing in the world to take a principled stance on an idea and extrapolate that everyone who believes any aspect you disagree with is WILLFULLY EVIL. That’s what allows you to demonise them and wrap yourself in a cloak of towering self-righteousness that permits you to do nearly anything to defend yourself against the evil beliefs and the harms you associate with them.

This what the Be Kind end if genderism has been doing to us for for years, after all. Personally, I try to avoid overly simplistic tribalism as it’s a crap way to run a society.

As nearly at end of thread...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549488-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-4

SEEN having a DEFRA network as well as χgoν
ED its an outlier
AL anything wrong with that
ED do I say that in my WS
AL what do you thing
ED no, not wrong
AL are there other similar networks or chapters
ED I think that SEEN has applied to have further specific dept networks
[bundle shuffling]
AL ED does not seem to have the right bundle,
J I can't help with that, it's the parties bundle
AL not suggesting that,
J if you're going to ask about that, you need to make sure that she has the correct bundle
AL not trying to be controversial

"Bundles? Where we're going... we won't need bundles."

@MarieDeGournay I've already got mine.

Lots of bundle shuffling going on......convenently she can't find the answers required. The judge does seem a little too sympathetic to her plight......

AL not trying to be controversial I've made numerous refs to it, but no one seems to have dealt with it.
HH - do you have a hard copy. HH - no I don't

AL showing up the incompetence of her team. Hopefully AL can also show the judge to be biased.

ED they are intersectional feminists
AL what does that mean
ED they are people who include trans non binary in their feminism

That's news to intersectional feminists who are 100% clear that woman means biological woman - all kinds of biological women, with different contexts and experiences and so on, but women not trans-IDing men.

Of course some i/sectional feminists are TWAW, but to redefine the whole label 'intersectional' - well, I suppose co-opting labels is par for the course.

I've made numerous refs to it, but no one seems to have dealt with it.
HH - do you have a hard copy.
HH - no I don't
J what are you wanting to refer to in it
AL a para in a CS i/x report I want to refer to, I wasn't meaning to waste the Tribunal's
time,
J - where is it?
AL you don't seem to have the correct bundle either,
J let's take a break and find out, this is an illustration of how this case has been prepared, not making accusations, it's not appropriate for us to thrash around trying to find the correct bundle.
AL I will have to move on if we can't find, but it is something that will have to be
before the tribunal and I'm looking to the C
to remedy this
J docs disclosed by C,
HH I will do my level best to sort this out, I'm having my own technical difficulties, Adobe has crashed

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549488-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-4