Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 3

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5548369-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-2

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

Saying sex is not binary says nothing about them. It doesn't hurt them.
AL its illogical because if stifle debate of one side where differences lie and where common ground can be found
ED if that's we were doing yes, we are trying to have a debate just not the debate
that SEEN

it's not the debate we are trying to have in the workplace

So they can have a debate in the workplace on their terms but nobody else is allowed to?

are trying to have.
J is the debate that SEEN is trying to have? ED binary and immutable
J the point being put to you, saying that is not a lawfully expressible position, closes down any possibility to find common ground
AL - how do people find common ground to work together

It's not much of a debate if you Old Yeller the contra position preemptively.

ED no it does not, would you like me to give you an analogy to explain it
AL no I am satisfied with your answer.

Al doing a great job in cornering her here. At some point I reckon s/he'll spring the ultimate trap.

ED's birthday celebration refers to being a straight ally, surprising she didnt mention Swyers then as it's often discovered when puberty doesnt happen. It's a very rare dsd but I've seen a lot of people claim to have it.

harmoniously if they can't express views
ED I don't need to hear their views to be able to work harmoniously with them
AL if people can't express GC views in the workplace, no one will know that they are GC, so you want them to keep quiet and accept your orthodoxy

It would seem so! How very surprising.

Sorry to be a pain but can you wait for paragraphs across a few tweets as cutting off midsentence and the chat then means it becomes unreadable.

AL can I get to the end of the sentence

Is the judge really treating the claimants like children.....that is certainly the way it is coming across. Like they are too immature to understand logic or reason and have to have it spelled out.

The debate they want to have is whether anyone is permitted to express a different view.

ED I want them to not cause harm to me and my members and I want everyone to acknowledge that fact
AL - pauses for J
AL we ref'd early the AG survey that you did, qs on that. You say in WS, confirm that you got 167 responses to survey,
ED yes

J the point being put to you, saying that is not a lawfully expressible position, closes down any possibility to find common ground
AL - how do people find common ground to work together

Being argumentative with the judge, like ST was. It's not up to the judge to explain to you how people find common ground to work together🙄

Yes, I shall from now on.

ED claiming to know only she knows the full and true facts.

I'm really surprised that someone with a DSD is using the term "Intersex". Many people with DSDs find the term VERY offensive and unhelpful.

Even is she doesn't feel that way herself, I would have thought she'd be more sensitive to others with the conditions.

(Cynically - would it spoil the acronym to use DSD?)

AL we look at 2 sides of the debate you say lawful to express one side of debate but not the other
ED That's correct

I don't think anybody with a uterus and fallopian tubes can be described as "being on the pathway to producing small gametes"

ED happy to have a debate, so long as the other side sit down, shut up and just let her and her alone talk.

Might it help to have TT open on Nitter for continuity - as well as following the excellent c&p ing and comments here of course😄
Tribunal Tweets (@tribunaltweets) | nitter.poast.org

AL if people can't express GC views in the workplace, no one will know that they are GC, so you want them to keep quiet and accept your orthodoxy

Great job!

AL there are 1,700 member of AG, I understand, can take you to Int bundle, page 566.
ED finds
AL increased membership to over 1,700, ED members and allies
J be precise about what you are asking AL can you help us with the distinctions between the 2
ED we have full members and we have ally members, allies are friends family loved ones supporters
AL can you help us with breakdown between the 2
ED no I can't
AL survey to full members only?
ED yes
AL can you give us a sense of number of members
ED I could try and find out AL tens, hundreds, ?
ED in the hundreds
AL so 167 replies is a small proportion of the members, you haven't confirmed numbers, what proportion of the members is that, you're the chair
ED its special category data, I pay no attention to who is a full
member, I don't handle any of that, it's dealt with by my team.
J can I just say that the hearing is being recorded can I ask you to speak to the room, not to AL,
ED should I speak to you
J just to the room
AL if it helps, I'm not offended if you don't look at me

AL can you help us with breakdown between the 2
ED no I can't
AL survey to full members only?
ED yes

monosyllabic, when asked to give info, polysyllabic when not asked

ED being a bit shifty on numbers there.

AL if it helps, I'm not offended if you don't look at me

Ha!