Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 3

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5548369-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-2

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

Thank you for new thread!

From TT:

J - you are using TIM, Lucy calls self 'transwoman', could you use TW, I know why you're using it, can we use that term, TIM has connotations
NC - I will do as you direct
J - yes,
NC - will do my best, to ST, turn to page ?
ST - I'm there
NC - have you read
ST - yes

<FFS Judge!>

NC - that's an example, its from Finn Catterel (sp), that what you would call a TM
ST - I don't know it's a neutral name
NC - it's a good example of handling disagreement in the workplace
ST - what disagreement
NC - I may not have quite the right reference

J - you are using TIM, Lucy calls self 'transwoman', could you use TW, I know why you're using it, can we use that term, TIM has connotations

Grrrrrrrrr

I don’t think NC was happy with the judge telling her to change her language.

TIM has connotations

It is accurate. What a way to start...

Yes, the “connotations” are that he is male 🙄

"I will do as you direct" was very clear :-)

Judge - You are using TIM, Lucy calls self 'transwoman', could you use TW, I know why you're using it, can we use that term, TIM has connotations.

I really hope that the judge is taking this stance to lessen the grounds for appeal, but I'm not confident - he seems to be asking for the use of ideological language in one direction only

Who's 'Lucy'?

I think he’s increasing the grounds for appeal.

Thanks!

So are we interpret that no one is allowed to refer to the fact that these men are male?

'NC - exchange between EW and TIM 'lucy' '

From TT:

NC - turn to page 1270, not sure why it's so far distant from prev ref
ST - yes, got that
NC - you've read it? from Finn Catterel, it's a better example of how to deal with these debates in the workplace
ST - in that respect yes, Finn, is trying to engage, still finding footing

finding out what it all means to them, when I commented, there was a point they hadn't considered, in their case they are happy to have a debate, doesn't mean it's suitable for the workplace or suitable or for everyone who's trans
NC - you jump in and say that GC means trans

doesn't exist.
ST - you say jump in, I responded to AM's post, he must have expected a reply
J - please slow down
NC, yes, your position is that to not accept you are a woman, is to deny your humanity
ST - I just want respect and consideration in the workplace

What he’s doing is going to increase media attention on this case.

I'm beginning to think the judge himself doesn't want to have to think of these men as male members of the human race.

Placemarking before going back to the other thread to catch up. Thanks everyone ❤

From TT:

NC - that means they cannot post any indication that TWAW
ST - it's not about TWAW, its about opening up a discussion about the core of who I am
NC - its right that both men and women are human
ST - yes
NC - you say GC belief refusal to accept TWAW that denies the humanity of

transpeople
ST - I've not said exactly that, you're narrowing in on one word and trying to change what I've said
NC - you have said repeatedly that refusing to accept TWAW is denying humanity of TW, it's an unfounded smear, would you like to withdraw it
ST - no

<note NC noticeably tougher this morning, wonder if the Judge directing her language has sparked this>

The judge needs to read the bloody Bench Book!

ST - I just want respect and consideration in the workplace

And yet refuses to accept that has to go both ways.

Are you sitting comfortably, then I'll begin...
(One for the oldies there).

NC - you have said repeatedly that refusing to accept TWAW is denying humanity of TW, it's an unfounded smear, would you like to withdraw it
ST - no

Nicely done.

ST - I've not said exactly that, you're narrowing in on one word and trying to change what I've said

that's rich coming from him

Bloody hell. Not using TiM has connotations too J! It’s all so one sided. Absolutely no respect for the fact that women are negatively impacted by compelled speech like this.

I used to love Listen with mother. Was most put out when I started school so had to miss it.