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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 3

862 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 10:12

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5548369-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-2

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

OP posts:
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sohard · Today 08:07

Organisations like Stonewall etc have really badly served people who are clearly mentally ill like this man by leading them to believe that anyone who misgenders or challenges them in any way, even by just saying they don’t believe TWAW, is causing them literal violence.

TinkerbellTempest · Today 08:14

sohard · Today 08:07

Organisations like Stonewall etc have really badly served people who are clearly mentally ill like this man by leading them to believe that anyone who misgenders or challenges them in any way, even by just saying they don’t believe TWAW, is causing them literal violence.

Well yes a little but this one is plain buck mad 😡

He’s a special breed of Tinkerbell. We’ve seen plenty of people with mental health issues but this one takes the biscuit.

One day into Naomi’s evidence and it’s all please Judge make her stop. I feel so sorry for anyone around him. He’s toxic.

ProfessorBinturong · Today 08:20

I do have some sympathy with the judge cutting off NC's extended chains of questions. It was unhelpful to her presentation of her case, and I'm pretty sure some crossed a boundary, but every question meant another stream of drivel in response. If I'd been listening to the full version rather than getting TT's edited highlights I'd also have wanted to go to great lengths to make it stop.

NowSober · Today 08:20

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · Yesterday 22:25

From tribunal tweets

NC: My final Q then.
NC: "Bullies trying to shut down a primarily women's organisation, acting for women's rights" is a fair way to describe you and your allies' conduct isn't it.
ST: No this is about the workplace, and how trans ppl treated there.
NC: And this claim is the same. Example of EDW and AM.
ST: No, my right to bring after grievance failed.
NC: [missed]
ST: Judge this is too far.
J: Do you disagree with the Q
ST: Yes

So it does not appear in this record

As I wrote upthread I think that Naomi just repeated her previous question (which she had described as her final question)

"Bullies trying to shut down a primarily women's organisation, acting for women's rights" is a fair way to describe you and your allies' conduct isn't it."

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 08:27

But you don’t know that. That doesn’t make logical sense to me, he said “oh no too much”, she wouldn’t have repeated it, she would have at the very least rephrased it. Could someone comment who actually heard, rather than people who didn’t?

Wishesandhorses · Today 08:32

Hyenana · Yesterday 23:08

Dennis Kavanagh has an interesting speculation on the judge's behavior.
nitter.poast.org/Jebadoo2/status/2072298699577864349#m
I wonder if now is the right time to kick up a fuss or if that might backfire. NC has gone on record that she is not satisfied with the situation and I wonder if one should wait for her to escalate or not.

I've given up making any attempt to read judges, particularly after watching Kemp come out with those, er, interesting 300 pages....

I suspect Naomi knows exactly what she's doing, and she gets points heard and on record, saying what is still considered to be unsayable.

janeszebra · Today 08:33

Yes, and also that can then be referred to in her submissions.

TinkerbellTempest · Today 08:33

‘It an attack …. on my ability to set the terms on how people interact with me’.

This sort of stuff from his statement betrays him. He wants to control manipulate and punish anyone who doesn’t respond to him in the way he wants.

He is bitter his first wife and friends walked away from him. He doesn’t join groups where he could be friends with others. Instead he incites hate online and seeks to punish an autistic woman. He is using this litigation as coercive control and the Judge is his tool.

It’s not enough to enable him so he wins - the very fact of the Judge compelling language stopping Naomi putting in her defence of her client is

setting the terms of how people interact with him.

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 3
BlueLegume · Today 08:35

@BendoftheBeginning and @FlirtsWithRhinos to be fair I agree with you both and my post didn’t clarify that not all genderists are trouble makers or unkind people. I should have clarified my position on that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 08:37

NowSober · Today 08:20

As I wrote upthread I think that Naomi just repeated her previous question (which she had described as her final question)

"Bullies trying to shut down a primarily women's organisation, acting for women's rights" is a fair way to describe you and your allies' conduct isn't it."

Having read back I can see how you got there, but I still think it would be good for someone who was listening to confirm, if you didn’t hear it, and she might have used a different phrasing/framing in the bit that was missed. I agree that’s the impression she wanted to leave with her final Q.

WomanInnaWoods · Today 08:37

Ironically, people "feeling genuinely forced to lie" could be taken as them still having his best interests at heart since they override their own best interests to suit his.

(incredibly loaded and emotionally charged expression to use imo, who wholeheartedly and completely expects that of their surface level familiarity colleagues?)

ETA telling replaced for taken

TinkerbellTempest · Today 08:38

BlueLegume · Today 08:35

@BendoftheBeginning and @FlirtsWithRhinos to be fair I agree with you both and my post didn’t clarify that not all genderists are trouble makers or unkind people. I should have clarified my position on that.

Well I haven’t followed that debate closely but it’s rather like saying all racists aren’t bad. Being a racist is bad.

The fact of being a genderist abuses the rights of every woman. It’s undermining 51% of the populace. It’s pretty disgusting. 🤮

PachacutisBadAuntie · Today 08:41

Best way we can help Elspeth right now is for those who can manage it to dig to help her meet her stretch target at 'Chair of SEEN sued for saying 'only women menstruate'.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 08:43

"feeling genuinely forced to lie"

So he'd be ok with knowing his co-workers were willingly lying to him. 🤔

CassOle · Today 08:44

TinkerbellTempest · Today 08:33

‘It an attack …. on my ability to set the terms on how people interact with me’.

This sort of stuff from his statement betrays him. He wants to control manipulate and punish anyone who doesn’t respond to him in the way he wants.

He is bitter his first wife and friends walked away from him. He doesn’t join groups where he could be friends with others. Instead he incites hate online and seeks to punish an autistic woman. He is using this litigation as coercive control and the Judge is his tool.

It’s not enough to enable him so he wins - the very fact of the Judge compelling language stopping Naomi putting in her defence of her client is

setting the terms of how people interact with him.

It reminds me of this.

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 3
Shedmistress · Today 08:45

sohard · Today 08:07

Organisations like Stonewall etc have really badly served people who are clearly mentally ill like this man by leading them to believe that anyone who misgenders or challenges them in any way, even by just saying they don’t believe TWAW, is causing them literal violence.

See, I might just be an old cynic but he isn't mentally ill, in any way.

He is just an AGP who hates uppity women daring to have opinions of their own and voicing them to other women and men who see straight through them.

He is just like any other bully that uses the system to elevate himself, and breaks down in tears if anyone challenges him.

TinkerbellTempest · Today 08:46

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 08:43

"feeling genuinely forced to lie"

So he'd be ok with knowing his co-workers were willingly lying to him. 🤔

He doesn’t have an issue with the delusional thinkers and ones who lie complicity. 🤯

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 08:48

TinkerbellTempest · Today 08:38

Well I haven’t followed that debate closely but it’s rather like saying all racists aren’t bad. Being a racist is bad.

The fact of being a genderist abuses the rights of every woman. It’s undermining 51% of the populace. It’s pretty disgusting. 🤮

I agree, the fact that Identarians are supporting this batshit ideology makes them part of the problem, not matter how 'kind' they are as a person.

TinkerbellTempest · Today 08:49

PachacutisBadAuntie · Today 08:41

Best way we can help Elspeth right now is for those who can manage it to dig to help her meet her stretch target at 'Chair of SEEN sued for saying 'only women menstruate'.

Yes she’s up to 76k seeds.

For those wondering how it connects - for years she was being sued - but last month Tinkerbell dropped her case against Elspeth directly - so he could force his employer to silence her and SEEN without them being allowed to defend themselves.

Elspeth sought to intervene to protect her and SEEN. Hence still needing the funding.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · Today 08:50

Shedmistress · Today 08:45

See, I might just be an old cynic but he isn't mentally ill, in any way.

He is just an AGP who hates uppity women daring to have opinions of their own and voicing them to other women and men who see straight through them.

He is just like any other bully that uses the system to elevate himself, and breaks down in tears if anyone challenges him.

I agree.

He’s just your common or garden AGP, with the usual rabid misogyny.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 08:52

I agree with this
He is just like any other bully that uses the system to elevate himself, and breaks down in tears if anyone challenges him.

But he's not AGP, 'trans' is his way of making himself special, he's committed to it because he can use it to bully and elevate himself.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 08:53

I don’t agree that the two things are mutually exclusive.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · Today 08:55

He’s suffering from too much porn-itis.

Shedmistress · Today 08:55

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 08:52

I agree with this
He is just like any other bully that uses the system to elevate himself, and breaks down in tears if anyone challenges him.

But he's not AGP, 'trans' is his way of making himself special, he's committed to it because he can use it to bully and elevate himself.

Have you not seen his alter ego page? He is definitely AGP. He thinks he is a 5ft tall fairy.

PachacutisBadAuntie · Today 08:56

TinkerbellTempest · Today 08:49

Yes she’s up to 76k seeds.

For those wondering how it connects - for years she was being sued - but last month Tinkerbell dropped her case against Elspeth directly - so he could force his employer to silence her and SEEN without them being allowed to defend themselves.

Elspeth sought to intervene to protect her and SEEN. Hence still needing the funding.

Yes, we should remember that this started with Elspeth being sued PERSONALLY by this dreadful man.

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