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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 3

996 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 10:12

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5548369-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-2

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

OP posts:
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26
KnottyAuty · Yesterday 22:58

Hyenana · Yesterday 21:33

After all the discussions on this thread today on whether NC is possibly too confrontational with the judge, I just saw a post that called her a "worthless handmaiden" for obeying the judge's pronoun orders 😖
https://nitter.net/AlessandraAster/status/2072281328679100923#m

Just catching up but I read that as - yes I’ll do as you direct because you’re the judge but thanks ever so much for handing me such easy grounds of appeal if things don’t go week this time around?

KnottyAuty · Yesterday 23:01

Phew it’s taken all day to catch up. Thanks all for this excellent thread

Hyenana · Yesterday 23:08

JaneDoeKeepsReceipts · Yesterday 22:41

President of Employment Tribunals
Complaint regarding the conduct of Employment Judge S.D. Robertson

Case: Samantha Tempest v Rural Payments Agency & Defra (with SEEN as Intervenor)
Tribunal Reference:
Hearing Dates: 23 June 2026 in Leeds

Dear Judge Barry Clarke,

I am writing to make a formal complaint about the conduct of Employment Judge S.D. Robertson in the above employment tribunal proceedings.

Summary of Concerns

I believe the judge’s actions during the hearing demonstrated bias, procedural unfairness, and an overreach that compromised the principles of open justice, freedom of expression, and the right to effective advocacy.

You will be aware that Judicial Conduct in Leeds has recently been investigated in following a U-turn by a judicial watchdog. This related to 10 complaints, spanning a seven-year period, made against Philip Lancaster, an employment tribunal judge in Leeds.

The Judicial Conduct Investigations Office (JCIO) had previously dismissed most of the allegations against Lancaster without examining them. We trust that you will address these most serious matters, especially in light of the failure to address inappropriate behaviour in this tribunal setting very recently.

Specifically:
Incorrect and Unnecessary Decisions on Pronouns / Compelled Speech
The judge directed that specific pronouns or terminology be used when referring to the claimant (Samantha Tempest), including in the advocacy of Naomi Cunningham (counsel for the intervenor SEEN) and her client Elspeth Duemmer Wrigley. This amounted to compelling speech and required the intervenor’s legal team to adopt language they reasonably believe to be inaccurate or contrary to their case. Such a direction interferes with counsel’s ability to present their client’s position honestly and effectively, and raises serious Article 10 ECHR (freedom of expression) concerns.

In particular Elspeth as a witness was ordered to use the pronouns they/them. This is in express breach of the EBTT, and in any event it is nonsensical to use plural pronouns for a man who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. Tempest identifies as a transwoman and non binary pronouns only serve to confuse the witness without satisfying Tempests wish to be addressed by female pronouns.

Controlling and Restricting Naomi Cunningham’s Advocacy
The judge’s interventions and rulings limited or controlled the manner in which Ms Cunningham could cross-examine or make submissions on behalf of the intervenor. This included restrictions on ordinary descriptive language regarding sex and gender, which are central to the issues in dispute. These restrictions appear to have gone beyond what is necessary for the orderly conduct of proceedings and instead favoured one party’s preferred narrative.

Appearance of Bias
The cumulative effect of these rulings creates a reasonable perception that the tribunal was not impartial. In a case involving sensitive issues of sex, gender, and protected beliefs, it is essential that the judge maintains strict neutrality and does not compel parties (or their representatives) to affirm contested beliefs through language.

Why This Matters
Judges have a duty under the Equal Treatment Bench Book and broader judicial principles to remain neutral and to avoid compelling parties to use language that engages their protected beliefs (as recognised in cases such as Forstater).

Requiring counsel to use particular pronouns or descriptors in this context risks turning the tribunal into an instrument of compelled speech rather than a neutral arbiter of facts and law.I understand that judicial independence is important and that case management decisions are generally a matter for the judge. However, when such decisions engage fundamental rights and create an appearance of unfairness or pre-determination, they warrant independent scrutiny. I refer you to the following supporting material:

Tribunal Tweets or live reporting of the relevant exchanges
Any transcripts or notes of the hearing
Public reports on the case

I respectfully request that this complaint be investigated thoroughly and that appropriate action be taken. I am happy to provide any further information required.

Yours faithfully,
[Your Full Name]

-------

Thoughts? Best examples?

Dennis Kavanagh has an interesting speculation on the judge's behavior.
nitter.poast.org/Jebadoo2/status/2072298699577864349#m
I wonder if now is the right time to kick up a fuss or if that might backfire. NC has gone on record that she is not satisfied with the situation and I wonder if one should wait for her to escalate or not.

WFTCHTJ · Yesterday 23:11

I would wait until the hearing is over, as there may yet be more examples that you wish to include.

Kirschcherries · Yesterday 23:13

Hyenana · Yesterday 23:08

Dennis Kavanagh has an interesting speculation on the judge's behavior.
nitter.poast.org/Jebadoo2/status/2072298699577864349#m
I wonder if now is the right time to kick up a fuss or if that might backfire. NC has gone on record that she is not satisfied with the situation and I wonder if one should wait for her to escalate or not.

I agree with Dennis Kavanagh I think the judge is leaving ST with no grounds for appeal.

BendoftheBeginning · Yesterday 23:15

BlueLegume · Yesterday 17:47

Yet again this is how captured organisations are.

I was reminded of this seeing the Pride event at Downing Street. It must be impossible to be outwardly heterosexual with a biological sex realistic view with an opposing view to transing children, objecting to fetish at Pride events. Quite literally unemployable. Where are the grown ups with a common sense approach.

We need productive employees who turn up do their job.

I hate having to be a bit contrarian, but it is worth pointing out that there are plenty of productive employees who have bought into GI. There isn’t actually a comfortable divide between workshy losers who have bought into it, and productive employees who haven’t.

The main issue is that people who have bought into it are generally not following the logic through to appreciate just how regressive it all is. That’s what makes it dangerous - it’s all harmless gender non-conformity until you really look at what’s involved with “trans kids” and men in women’s sports, prisons and changing rooms.

If everyone supporting GI was as maladjusted as the TRAs who end up in tribunals are, we would never have ended up here because the whole concept would have been laughed out of the room years ago.

moto748e · Yesterday 23:19

Kirschcherries · Yesterday 23:13

I agree with Dennis Kavanagh I think the judge is leaving ST with no grounds for appeal.

Could well be, but in that case surely NC would twig that? Although she might not obviously show it. I dunno how confident counsel can be of predicting judges.

Hyenana · Yesterday 23:19

KnottyAuty · Yesterday 22:58

Just catching up but I read that as - yes I’ll do as you direct because you’re the judge but thanks ever so much for handing me such easy grounds of appeal if things don’t go week this time around?

It's difficult to tell without having been there and listened to exactly how it was said, but it sounded very much like 'I very much disagree but now it's time for me to focus on getting on with the case'. Definitely not submissive.

TinkerbellTempest · Yesterday 23:20

I think it’s a matter for Naomi and Elspeth to indicate one way or the other. But the judge doesn’t need to show bias for my namesake.

The judge is supposed to be impartial - and he is not. He stopped Naomi’s advocacy many times. It’s deeply impactful to her making the relevant points in her clients case.

I also think the situation rolling on harms Elspeth. She was clearly distressed today. She has done nothing wrong yet has been made ill by these men. Compelling her speech is abusive even if done so she can win the case (which I’m not sure I buy into).

socialdilemmawhattodo · Yesterday 23:23

JaneDoeKeepsReceipts · Yesterday 22:41

President of Employment Tribunals
Complaint regarding the conduct of Employment Judge S.D. Robertson

Case: Samantha Tempest v Rural Payments Agency & Defra (with SEEN as Intervenor)
Tribunal Reference:
Hearing Dates: 23 June 2026 in Leeds

Dear Judge Barry Clarke,

I am writing to make a formal complaint about the conduct of Employment Judge S.D. Robertson in the above employment tribunal proceedings.

Summary of Concerns

I believe the judge’s actions during the hearing demonstrated bias, procedural unfairness, and an overreach that compromised the principles of open justice, freedom of expression, and the right to effective advocacy.

You will be aware that Judicial Conduct in Leeds has recently been investigated in following a U-turn by a judicial watchdog. This related to 10 complaints, spanning a seven-year period, made against Philip Lancaster, an employment tribunal judge in Leeds.

The Judicial Conduct Investigations Office (JCIO) had previously dismissed most of the allegations against Lancaster without examining them. We trust that you will address these most serious matters, especially in light of the failure to address inappropriate behaviour in this tribunal setting very recently.

Specifically:
Incorrect and Unnecessary Decisions on Pronouns / Compelled Speech
The judge directed that specific pronouns or terminology be used when referring to the claimant (Samantha Tempest), including in the advocacy of Naomi Cunningham (counsel for the intervenor SEEN) and her client Elspeth Duemmer Wrigley. This amounted to compelling speech and required the intervenor’s legal team to adopt language they reasonably believe to be inaccurate or contrary to their case. Such a direction interferes with counsel’s ability to present their client’s position honestly and effectively, and raises serious Article 10 ECHR (freedom of expression) concerns.

In particular Elspeth as a witness was ordered to use the pronouns they/them. This is in express breach of the EBTT, and in any event it is nonsensical to use plural pronouns for a man who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. Tempest identifies as a transwoman and non binary pronouns only serve to confuse the witness without satisfying Tempests wish to be addressed by female pronouns.

Controlling and Restricting Naomi Cunningham’s Advocacy
The judge’s interventions and rulings limited or controlled the manner in which Ms Cunningham could cross-examine or make submissions on behalf of the intervenor. This included restrictions on ordinary descriptive language regarding sex and gender, which are central to the issues in dispute. These restrictions appear to have gone beyond what is necessary for the orderly conduct of proceedings and instead favoured one party’s preferred narrative.

Appearance of Bias
The cumulative effect of these rulings creates a reasonable perception that the tribunal was not impartial. In a case involving sensitive issues of sex, gender, and protected beliefs, it is essential that the judge maintains strict neutrality and does not compel parties (or their representatives) to affirm contested beliefs through language.

Why This Matters
Judges have a duty under the Equal Treatment Bench Book and broader judicial principles to remain neutral and to avoid compelling parties to use language that engages their protected beliefs (as recognised in cases such as Forstater).

Requiring counsel to use particular pronouns or descriptors in this context risks turning the tribunal into an instrument of compelled speech rather than a neutral arbiter of facts and law.I understand that judicial independence is important and that case management decisions are generally a matter for the judge. However, when such decisions engage fundamental rights and create an appearance of unfairness or pre-determination, they warrant independent scrutiny. I refer you to the following supporting material:

Tribunal Tweets or live reporting of the relevant exchanges
Any transcripts or notes of the hearing
Public reports on the case

I respectfully request that this complaint be investigated thoroughly and that appropriate action be taken. I am happy to provide any further information required.

Yours faithfully,
[Your Full Name]

-------

Thoughts? Best examples?

Great letter, but Perhaps hold off for now. I would let the counsels decide how they wish to proceed. We are not finished yet on this case. Sorry, we, the general public and observers, not anyone directly working on the case.

FlirtsWithRhinos · Yesterday 23:24

BendoftheBeginning · Yesterday 23:15

I hate having to be a bit contrarian, but it is worth pointing out that there are plenty of productive employees who have bought into GI. There isn’t actually a comfortable divide between workshy losers who have bought into it, and productive employees who haven’t.

The main issue is that people who have bought into it are generally not following the logic through to appreciate just how regressive it all is. That’s what makes it dangerous - it’s all harmless gender non-conformity until you really look at what’s involved with “trans kids” and men in women’s sports, prisons and changing rooms.

If everyone supporting GI was as maladjusted as the TRAs who end up in tribunals are, we would never have ended up here because the whole concept would have been laughed out of the room years ago.

100% this.

I don't think most Genderists are bad people. I just think they are wrong (and a bit sexist) to consider man and woman as types of personalities.

NebulousSupportPostcard · Yesterday 23:36

moto748e · Yesterday 23:19

Could well be, but in that case surely NC would twig that? Although she might not obviously show it. I dunno how confident counsel can be of predicting judges.

Agree.

We on mumsnet thought something similar in Sandie Peggie's tribunal.

I don't think Judges are very predictable.

I expect NC will be very mindful of how the hearing is affecting EWD and will be working closely with her and on her instruction. If NC is anyone's 'handmaiden' then she is Elspeth's, and the twitter complainant can go whistle.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · Yesterday 23:36

Kirschcherries · Yesterday 23:13

I agree with Dennis Kavanagh I think the judge is leaving ST with no grounds for appeal.

This might line up with the Judge 'helping ST along' and trying to stop NC pushing home points. If there is little or no case to answer, why push the witness through questioning that is clearly causing them distress?
It's a theory I guess.

Are there any observers with a legal background? Does there appear to be much if any case to answer based on the evidence so far?

ProfessorBinturong · Yesterday 23:40

JaneDoeKeepsReceipts · Yesterday 22:41

President of Employment Tribunals
Complaint regarding the conduct of Employment Judge S.D. Robertson

Case: Samantha Tempest v Rural Payments Agency & Defra (with SEEN as Intervenor)
Tribunal Reference:
Hearing Dates: 23 June 2026 in Leeds

Dear Judge Barry Clarke,

I am writing to make a formal complaint about the conduct of Employment Judge S.D. Robertson in the above employment tribunal proceedings.

Summary of Concerns

I believe the judge’s actions during the hearing demonstrated bias, procedural unfairness, and an overreach that compromised the principles of open justice, freedom of expression, and the right to effective advocacy.

You will be aware that Judicial Conduct in Leeds has recently been investigated in following a U-turn by a judicial watchdog. This related to 10 complaints, spanning a seven-year period, made against Philip Lancaster, an employment tribunal judge in Leeds.

The Judicial Conduct Investigations Office (JCIO) had previously dismissed most of the allegations against Lancaster without examining them. We trust that you will address these most serious matters, especially in light of the failure to address inappropriate behaviour in this tribunal setting very recently.

Specifically:
Incorrect and Unnecessary Decisions on Pronouns / Compelled Speech
The judge directed that specific pronouns or terminology be used when referring to the claimant (Samantha Tempest), including in the advocacy of Naomi Cunningham (counsel for the intervenor SEEN) and her client Elspeth Duemmer Wrigley. This amounted to compelling speech and required the intervenor’s legal team to adopt language they reasonably believe to be inaccurate or contrary to their case. Such a direction interferes with counsel’s ability to present their client’s position honestly and effectively, and raises serious Article 10 ECHR (freedom of expression) concerns.

In particular Elspeth as a witness was ordered to use the pronouns they/them. This is in express breach of the EBTT, and in any event it is nonsensical to use plural pronouns for a man who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. Tempest identifies as a transwoman and non binary pronouns only serve to confuse the witness without satisfying Tempests wish to be addressed by female pronouns.

Controlling and Restricting Naomi Cunningham’s Advocacy
The judge’s interventions and rulings limited or controlled the manner in which Ms Cunningham could cross-examine or make submissions on behalf of the intervenor. This included restrictions on ordinary descriptive language regarding sex and gender, which are central to the issues in dispute. These restrictions appear to have gone beyond what is necessary for the orderly conduct of proceedings and instead favoured one party’s preferred narrative.

Appearance of Bias
The cumulative effect of these rulings creates a reasonable perception that the tribunal was not impartial. In a case involving sensitive issues of sex, gender, and protected beliefs, it is essential that the judge maintains strict neutrality and does not compel parties (or their representatives) to affirm contested beliefs through language.

Why This Matters
Judges have a duty under the Equal Treatment Bench Book and broader judicial principles to remain neutral and to avoid compelling parties to use language that engages their protected beliefs (as recognised in cases such as Forstater).

Requiring counsel to use particular pronouns or descriptors in this context risks turning the tribunal into an instrument of compelled speech rather than a neutral arbiter of facts and law.I understand that judicial independence is important and that case management decisions are generally a matter for the judge. However, when such decisions engage fundamental rights and create an appearance of unfairness or pre-determination, they warrant independent scrutiny. I refer you to the following supporting material:

Tribunal Tweets or live reporting of the relevant exchanges
Any transcripts or notes of the hearing
Public reports on the case

I respectfully request that this complaint be investigated thoroughly and that appropriate action be taken. I am happy to provide any further information required.

Yours faithfully,
[Your Full Name]

-------

Thoughts? Best examples?

If you want to add a specific example of taking sides, the one where he asked NC to use TW instead of TIM, "because TIM has connotations" would be good. It ignores that TW also 'has connotations'.

It was the first session this morning and the wording from Tribunal Tweets was:

"J - you are using TIM, Lucy calls self 'transwoman', could you use TW, I know why you're using it, can we use that term, TIM has connotations
NC - I will do as you direct"

ProfessorBinturong · Yesterday 23:43

Link to the Tweet in question: https://x.com/i/status/2072252334361481298

NebulousSupportPostcard · Today 00:34

RogueFemale · Yesterday 21:18

Saw this on X/nitter.

Holy shit, are you trying to make us all choke to death in our beds??!!? 🧐🤣

I need those swaying middle aged man hips out of my brain so I can sleep tonight!

UtopiaPlanitia · Today 00:44

RogueFemale · Yesterday 21:18

Saw this on X/nitter.

Men of this type have ruined Anime for me 🤬

Jimmyneutronsforehead · Today 01:10

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · Yesterday 21:47

Caught up, pesky work got in the way.

Not sure what to say about this afternoon's testimony other than when pressed ST seems to answer a different question, generate word salad, claim there are two instances of evidence that completely support his point of view 'somewhere in the bundle', generate word game half truth answers or become emotionally aggravated.

Selective amnesia seems to be ST's super power. I do wonder, if you live in such a fragile state, do you end up remembering only your perception of the harm that is being done to you and not the actual events. This might explain why ST remembers precisely when harm was done but when pressed for the evidence becomes confused as none actually exists.

At times he seems to think that it is OK for him to advise the judge what to do or answer counsel's questions with other questions. In the transcript he seemed really disrespectful again and again - why was this allowed?

ST: Judge this is too far.
J: Do you disagree with the Q
ST: Yes

As far as I could see from the transcript ST's counsel made no attempt to object to this question - ST made a direct appeal to the judge

Observers - did ST appear to be building a special relationship with the judge through today?

On a more positive note, saw a humming bird moth in the garden this evening flitting from bloom to bloom, what an amazing creature

Edited

I do wonder, if you live in such a fragile state, do you end up remembering only your perception of the harm that is being done to you and not the actual events.

Yes, basically.

I'm not a therapist, psychiatrist or medical professional in any way shape or form but I am sure I read somewhere that when you are chronically stressed or in a traumatic situation your brain holds on to the feelings longer than it holds on to the facts. That's why we shouldn't trust feelings and not all feelings are valid.

It might even have been my therapist that said this to me, after I explained I can't remember the things that occurred in an instance, but I remember it made me feel Big Mad and Big Sad so it must have been a proportionate response even though I can't really remember it except I didn't like it and therefore it was a punishable offense worthy of 50 years locked in a slimy dungeon.

In STs case, I think whoever coined the idea that because life is actually so neutral, he seeks out stress and trauma, so his neutral position is TWAW and anything in the middle like TWAM but you go and rock that dress and call yourself Samantha more power to you is seen as a cancelling offense. He doesn't even know half of WHY he wants SEEN shut down, just that they wouldn't accept him, they wouldn't help him, he hasn't even asked but he just knows their existence hurts his fee fees and they want him vanquished off the face of the earth despite saying no such thing.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · Today 01:38

TrainedByTheBiddyMafia · Yesterday 22:28

There’s something really tragic about an adult, especially an adult of more mature years, adopting the name of an anime character/larping full time, and creepy when it’s a male larping as one that looks like a girl (I understand the character is supposed to be in her 20s but is under 5ft in height so 🤷🏻‍♀️)

There's a popular theme in animes called the "legal loli" where they introduce what appears to be a child, but they spin into their (though let's be real, it's always female) story that they're some sort of magical half/elf who is actually thousands of years old so it's perfectly fine for adult themes to surround this character.

It is popular in a lot of animes, and even games.

For example: Miss Kobayashis dragon maid - an anime about a regular old office worker, Miss Kobayashi, who ends up intertwined with the world of dragons and ends up with a whole host of them living in her house, most young adult humanoid appearing, with one specific character Kanna being a child, even going to school with human children. They released a movie not so long back where the main character of that film was Kanna, and there were certainly fan service clips in. Up skirt shots, action scenes with slowed down frames, deliberately editable scenes for the adult viewing sites.

I went to the cinema to watch this movie, and the cinema was full of just sort of gross, solo men that you would expect. I walked out feeling quite sick to my stomach.

Once you see it you can't unsee it.

There's also the popular game series Zelda, where a character called Purah, is one of the last of the Hylian, a race that can live a long time, like elves, though they do typically age. She is over 100 years old, but as a science experiment she tries to reverse her aging, but reverses it so far she ends up a child again. Then in the next game within the series she's suddenly a beautiful young adult, but you can bet that the reverse aging to a child wasn't a wholly innocent and fun little decision made in production and storyboarding.

I used to love anime, it was a big passion growing up but I just can't anymore. The screenwriters know what they're doing and who they're doing it for and whenever I see an anime profile picture from someone who is part of the pronoun parade, especially if I know that anime has a legal loli character it automatically raises questions.

In the case of a closer-to-50 year old man using a young female anime character as his avatar it just stinks of predatory behaviour.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 06:06

SqueakyDinosaur · Yesterday 22:16

I thought the Q was whether ST felt he should pay back his sick pay?

I can confirm it was not NC but me making a joke, 🤗

Theunchosenone · Today 07:27

UtopiaPlanitia · Today 00:44

Men of this type have ruined Anime for me 🤬

Same.

Rightsraptor · Today 07:35

Good morning everyone.

I'd been struggling with how the headline I'd seen about the chair of SEEN being sued for saying only women menstruate and how that fits in with what we now see happening, i.e. that EDW is now an intervenor and not a respondent. Now I think I've got the hang of it, I'm gobsmacked that she could be taken to court in the first place for saying such an innocuous (and accurate if she's including girls in her 'women') thing. I expect he'd added a few more tasty items to the charge sheet but it really highlights how utterly vindictive he is.

Shocking.

janeszebra · Today 07:51

Finally caught up. This case is mad in a whole sea of mad cases.

TinkerbellTempest · Today 08:06

Hi I’m SaMANtha,

At work I love to make friends. So being the strong fierce trans queen I am I decided to join the breastfeeding group. I’m a sucker for tits.

And since I’m old and take hormones I moseyed on into the menopause group.

That group wide LGBTQIA group that includes me, a TRANS, well heck no, I didn’t join that. Why would I join a group directly set up for me any my interests where I can seek affirmation? Don’t wanna hang out with those people.

It’s more fun to chase down evidence from women with autism on calls confirming that women menstruate (since you know facts) and sue them.

Sa-MAN-ny.

P.s. I’m a survivor, I’ve overcome lanyards and kids books magicking me out of existence. 📕 Hooray for me.