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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 3

862 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 10:12

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5548369-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-2

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

OP posts:
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TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 08:58

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 08:53

I don’t agree that the two things are mutually exclusive.

I didn't say they were but AGP is not the only motivation for men. He's a nobody who thinks he should be a somebody and 'trans' is his way of getting the recognition he thinks is his rightful due. It's just the vehicle he's using to bully and coerce everyone in giving him what he thinks he deserves.

He's also nuts.

janeszebra · Today 08:59

What time is the session starting today? Is it 10am again?

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 09:04

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 08:58

I didn't say they were but AGP is not the only motivation for men. He's a nobody who thinks he should be a somebody and 'trans' is his way of getting the recognition he thinks is his rightful due. It's just the vehicle he's using to bully and coerce everyone in giving him what he thinks he deserves.

He's also nuts.

He does appear to be an AGP though. I’d say the vast majority of men who aren’t gay that “trans” have some element of it, in addition to their other issues and motivations.

ProfessorBinturong · Today 09:04

Anyone that deep in delusion about what is reasonable to demand of other people, and who can say the things he came out with on the stand with a straight face and no apparent insight into how they would be perceived, must have some sort of personablity disorder or psychological / psychiatric / neurological condition.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 09:05

I wrote a post justifying why I think he’s an AGP but I decided not to post it as it’s obviously making assumptions and I don’t want to get deleted.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 09:06

ProfessorBinturong · Today 09:04

Anyone that deep in delusion about what is reasonable to demand of other people, and who can say the things he came out with on the stand with a straight face and no apparent insight into how they would be perceived, must have some sort of personablity disorder or psychological / psychiatric / neurological condition.

Absolutely. Mostly cluster B personality disorders I think.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 09:06

Which is obviously also an assumption on my part!

Mmmnotsure · Today 09:13

The times where Elspeth became distressed seem to have coincided with the occasions when ST was apparently being overcome with emotion at what he was being asked.

PachacutisBadAuntie · Today 09:17

Mmmnotsure · Today 09:13

The times where Elspeth became distressed seem to have coincided with the occasions when ST was apparently being overcome with emotion at what he was being asked.

Maybe someone was gurning at her...

Tallisker · Today 09:18

The dresses he has worn throughout have been flowery and shown a lot of skin. The first day when he wasn’t on the stand the dress was very low cut. One day it was like a strappy sundress with bows on the shoulder and visible bra straps. Yesterday was bare arms and a low-ish back. Absolutely nothing wrong with any of those dresses, but they were so unlike anything anyone else was wearing in the tribunal, it actually looked like a costume.

myladydisdainisyetliving · Today 09:18

Morning all. Just a reminder I can’t c&p this morning but will be around to do so this afternoon if needed. I can also set up a new thread now as I presume this one will fill up before I’m back?

OP posts:
myladydisdainisyetliving · Today 09:21

Tallisker · Today 09:18

The dresses he has worn throughout have been flowery and shown a lot of skin. The first day when he wasn’t on the stand the dress was very low cut. One day it was like a strappy sundress with bows on the shoulder and visible bra straps. Yesterday was bare arms and a low-ish back. Absolutely nothing wrong with any of those dresses, but they were so unlike anything anyone else was wearing in the tribunal, it actually looked like a costume.

Yes, in stark contrast to the formal office wear clothing of the legal teams, EDW and even ED.

OP posts:
Tallisker · Today 09:24

Mmmnotsure · Today 09:13

The times where Elspeth became distressed seem to have coincided with the occasions when ST was apparently being overcome with emotion at what he was being asked.

I think she was so distressed at his obvious performance of fragility. She has endured bullying at the hands of this man for YEARS.

The claimant’s behaviour in this tribunal seems gobsmacking to many, but such behaviour has been normalised and supported at work in the civil service. This behaviour IS business as usual. It’s only since the formation of SEEN and the Supreme Court judgement that changes are being made to curb the most outrageous demands of the trans lobby and their allies. SEEN fights daily to challenge the promotion of this ideology and to get the employer to treat its employees even-handedly. It’s a constant uphill struggle for them.

EmpressDomesticatednottamed · Today 09:25

Tallisker · Today 09:18

The dresses he has worn throughout have been flowery and shown a lot of skin. The first day when he wasn’t on the stand the dress was very low cut. One day it was like a strappy sundress with bows on the shoulder and visible bra straps. Yesterday was bare arms and a low-ish back. Absolutely nothing wrong with any of those dresses, but they were so unlike anything anyone else was wearing in the tribunal, it actually looked like a costume.

I often think of the performative aspect so in that sense it is a costume and he is the star in his own prouduction. The fourth wall must be kept unbroken at all costs so the illusion doesn't disappear.

TinkerbellTempest · Today 09:25

Tallisker · Today 09:18

The dresses he has worn throughout have been flowery and shown a lot of skin. The first day when he wasn’t on the stand the dress was very low cut. One day it was like a strappy sundress with bows on the shoulder and visible bra straps. Yesterday was bare arms and a low-ish back. Absolutely nothing wrong with any of those dresses, but they were so unlike anything anyone else was wearing in the tribunal, it actually looked like a costume.

It is - it’s a woman face costume.

Like black face we will one day and look back in horror at how enabled and extensive it was.

Hyenana · Today 09:27

Wishesandhorses · Today 08:32

I've given up making any attempt to read judges, particularly after watching Kemp come out with those, er, interesting 300 pages....

I suspect Naomi knows exactly what she's doing, and she gets points heard and on record, saying what is still considered to be unsayable.

DK might be wrong of course, but he is a barrister himself so his speculations on the judge's behavior carry more weight than those of ordinary laypeople like me or most in this thread.
I dimly remember reading somewhere (here on MN??) that in one of the earlier hearings in this case ST got extremely upset at the judge unintentionally mistergendering him, so maybe that is what makes the judge treat him with kid gloves?
But as you say, the main point is that NC is going on record as disagreeing with the pronoun policy, leaving open the possibility of further action.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Today 09:30

It's the constant need to show everyone that they're a woman, that illuminates most of all how they're not women at all, just a men in a dresses.

I will say though if he thought he was more women than the women in court then he would be AGP.

Tallisker · Today 09:30

Tallisker · Today 09:24

I think she was so distressed at his obvious performance of fragility. She has endured bullying at the hands of this man for YEARS.

The claimant’s behaviour in this tribunal seems gobsmacking to many, but such behaviour has been normalised and supported at work in the civil service. This behaviour IS business as usual. It’s only since the formation of SEEN and the Supreme Court judgement that changes are being made to curb the most outrageous demands of the trans lobby and their allies. SEEN fights daily to challenge the promotion of this ideology and to get the employer to treat its employees even-handedly. It’s a constant uphill struggle for them.

Quoting myself, apologies, but wanted to add I’m very pleased that his behaviour is out there to be seen in public now. Not that it was very public, only 25-30 people were online, but hopefully the employer will be much more clued up now having seen the circus in a legal setting. Although the judge let the claimant get out of answering questions by crying…

Jimmyneutronsforehead · Today 09:30

If, big if though at the minute, I can get DS into school, I can C&P. He's meant to be in at 10 but so far the stars are not in alignment. If someone better can do it then please do, if not, happy to give it a whirl with a probably slight delay at least to the start. Also won't be available from 3pm onwards.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 09:32

i can’t cover for long but can probably do the start @Jimmyneutronsforehead and then you could take over when you return?

Jimmyneutronsforehead · Today 09:33

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 09:32

i can’t cover for long but can probably do the start @Jimmyneutronsforehead and then you could take over when you return?

That would be amazing. Thank you

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 09:34

Cool, I will charge up my phone with Twitter.

anyolddinosaur · Today 09:34

@impossibletoday that video would be a lot more effective if it was in a bloke's voice.

Whatever the judge thinks his actions give a strong appearance of bias.. I dont have much faith in the courts and this undermines what little was left.

SinnerBoy · Today 09:39

He may not have an identifiable mental illness, but he's definitely got some screws loose.

EmpressDomesticatednottamed · Today 09:40

Thank you so much to all the copy and pasters, getting on with organising it around all the other things needing to be done, thank you
💐

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