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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 2

1000 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · 29/06/2026 13:03

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5546841-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-follow-on-from-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

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myladydisdainisyetliving · 01/07/2026 10:12

From TT:

10 am, WFTCHTJ.
Yesterday evening there was discussion of how ST might be able to review the moderation spreadsheet, a request from NC for the Intervenors.
Cross examination of ST by NC is expecting to continue this morning.

Note, new thread cued up at: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549122-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-3

I'll continue to c&p here until this thread is full.

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MoistVonL · 01/07/2026 10:15

SinnerBoy · 01/07/2026 10:07

(I've just read the MBIM reviews and couldn't find the terrorist one).

Is this close enough, from Good Reads?
(Now a delightful, inclusive picture book is "killing" people. Sigh.)

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 2
myladydisdainisyetliving · 01/07/2026 10:17

From TT:

It's 10:15, we are still WFTCHTJ.

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lcakethereforeIam · 01/07/2026 10:19

Re. dealing with people who are delusional. I've encountered a couple (the woman who was being poisoned by her husband, and his fancy woman who was living under the floor). They can say the most batshit things utterly straight faced. Disagreeing with them usually provokes anger. The delusion has to be protected. Logic and reason are either ignored or seamlessly incorporated.

I think ST might win on the grounds that his employers strung him along, it should have been nipped in the bud. The instances of his grievances being upheld and him being 'promised' illegal or unfeasible remedies. Probably due to Stonewall's influence, poorly trained people involved in the grievance process, possibly 'allies', and thus primed to believe him, or completely bamboozled by ST. I can sympathise. Nonsense said utterly po-faced by someone who seems sane and is coherent within the terms of the delusion can be very compelling.

Boiledbeetle · 01/07/2026 10:20

myladydisdainisyetliving · 01/07/2026 10:17

From TT:

It's 10:15, we are still WFTCHTJ.

I'll go to the loo, that should hopefully work and I'll return to a full thread!

WanderingBundle · 01/07/2026 10:20

Isn’t it amazing that saying stuff like your body is yours can lead to death.

I used to think things like Ebola, terrorist attacked and inadequate sanitation led to death.

But oh no the real culprit was lurking in the kids section of the library all along hiding in plain sight - only to infect and cause the death of ‘trans’ kids.

BettyBooper · 01/07/2026 10:20

Time for this one again...😂

battle GIF
SidewaysOtter · 01/07/2026 10:20

WomanInnaWoods · 01/07/2026 10:05

Mr Tempest can be summarised as a particularly potent combination of "post hoc rationalisation" and "fundamental attribution error".

@DrBlackbird I've seen this described as "chasing the dragon"

Isn’t “chasing the dragon” something to do with smoking heroin? Mind you, I think being on significant quantities of drugs is the only way I could make sense of Tempest’s arguments…

BeMoreBear · 01/07/2026 10:21

lcakethereforeIam · 01/07/2026 10:19

Re. dealing with people who are delusional. I've encountered a couple (the woman who was being poisoned by her husband, and his fancy woman who was living under the floor). They can say the most batshit things utterly straight faced. Disagreeing with them usually provokes anger. The delusion has to be protected. Logic and reason are either ignored or seamlessly incorporated.

I think ST might win on the grounds that his employers strung him along, it should have been nipped in the bud. The instances of his grievances being upheld and him being 'promised' illegal or unfeasible remedies. Probably due to Stonewall's influence, poorly trained people involved in the grievance process, possibly 'allies', and thus primed to believe him, or completely bamboozled by ST. I can sympathise. Nonsense said utterly po-faced by someone who seems sane and is coherent within the terms of the delusion can be very compelling.

and his fancy woman who was living under the floor

I'm sorry -what now?

Tallisker · 01/07/2026 10:21

Well I’ve been chucked out twice now. People are joining with their cameras on. If anyone is in, please ask the clerks to let the people in the waiting room in.

myladydisdainisyetliving · 01/07/2026 10:21

<there is some difficulty being connected today. I've been kicked out twice and it seems from the brief time that I have been connected there are other observers with open mics and cameras, so I think the clerks are trying to deal with that>

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Scout2016 · 01/07/2026 10:21

SidewaysOtter · 01/07/2026 10:20

Isn’t “chasing the dragon” something to do with smoking heroin? Mind you, I think being on significant quantities of drugs is the only way I could make sense of Tempest’s arguments…

It is addiction related - seeking the buzz and needing more and more each time to achieve the same high.

myladydisdainisyetliving · 01/07/2026 10:22

From TT:

We are about to begin.
Admitted to the CVP, some muting and turning off cameras happening.
Video conference abruptly terminated, waiting to rejoin.

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BeMoreBear · 01/07/2026 10:23

SidewaysOtter · 01/07/2026 10:20

Isn’t “chasing the dragon” something to do with smoking heroin? Mind you, I think being on significant quantities of drugs is the only way I could make sense of Tempest’s arguments…

I think living in their delusions is a drug to some people. They certainly don't seem to be able to function with them.

Boiledbeetle · 01/07/2026 10:24

And now the washing machine has just pinged to say it's finished. It definitely has to have got going by the time I've put the washing out.

WanderingBundle · 01/07/2026 10:26

SidewaysOtter · 01/07/2026 10:20

Isn’t “chasing the dragon” something to do with smoking heroin? Mind you, I think being on significant quantities of drugs is the only way I could make sense of Tempest’s arguments…

It’s like your first hit of dressing up and looking at yourself, you get a hit. But you try it in real life and nothing matches up, and people side eye and your wife tells you to wise up.

Nothing ever matches up. No matter how many surgeries you have or filters you put over your photos.

SidewaysOtter · 01/07/2026 10:28

myladydisdainisyetliving · 01/07/2026 10:22

From TT:

We are about to begin.
Admitted to the CVP, some muting and turning off cameras happening.
Video conference abruptly terminated, waiting to rejoin.

You would think HMCTS would be on top of this remote observer thing by now, in that they’d had greater capacity AND know how to manage observers?

myladydisdainisyetliving · 01/07/2026 10:28

From TT:

We are back in the CVP, observers still being admitted.

We begin.
NC - we were talking about your claim that SEEN and EW denied the humanity of trans people, a couple of qs, turn to Int bundle, 754, it's a chain of emails, runs backwards, please read it starting with email from EW to page 750, when you've read it let me know.

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myladydisdainisyetliving · 01/07/2026 10:29

SidewaysOtter · 01/07/2026 10:28

You would think HMCTS would be on top of this remote observer thing by now, in that they’d had greater capacity AND know how to manage observers?

Different ETs, different courts, whole new set of clerks to go on a rapid learning curve for large numbers of observers every time.

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ProfessorBinturong · 01/07/2026 10:31

ProfLargofesse · 30/06/2026 23:20

We’ve not been served well by women on panels generally speaking. I think it the intrinsic unspoken agreement that for women to gain any authority in senior roles, or roles with status usually afforded to men, the first rule of fight club is to conform to the expectations of men. They are seldom feminists but more likely to be practitioners of patriarchy, doing their bit in holding it up.

Often the case, but not always - for example the women on Supreme Court FWS panel really seemed to get it.

Tallisker · 01/07/2026 10:31

Naomi has gone back to her old seat.

StellaAndCrow · 01/07/2026 10:31

NC is starting.

New thread?

myladydisdainisyetliving · 01/07/2026 10:32

New thread at: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549122-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-3

From TT:

ST reading.

J - how many pages do you want us to read?
NC - up to page 750 (email chain, start at bottom, work up)

ST - have read
NC - exchange between EW and TIM 'lucy' yes
ST - yes, that's what it says
NC - are you saying that's not what it is
ST - I don't know the people or about the convo
NC - on the face seems warm and
ST - yes, seems friendly

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myladydisdainisyetliving · 01/07/2026 10:34

Finis

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