Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 2

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5546841-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-follow-on-from-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

Although if DEFRA want to root out the instruments of capture for future sanity they might feel the attention this is getting might help them ie the more the wider public see the man behind the curtain pulling the levers in Emerald City the more they will be able to change the shape of the culture…perhaps.

We didn’t allow men in our menopause group at work. We all agreed they can do their own research /read up if they really want to know about the subject. Plenty of material out there.

@WrongKindOfFeminist Disorienting is exactly right. I've encountered grew up in a fair bit of what you describe and the unpredictability never got easier to deal with.

Tempest, however, I would not accuse of rationality, seeming or otherwise!

ST's case is so devoid of evidence. I'm surprised it got this far without a Deposit Order.

After so many disappointments to date, I wouldn't be surprised if he somehow still wins some of his claims, but the thought of having this claptrap spewed over a higher court is mind boggling!

Nope not missing any evidence.

Naomi could point to a page where it says women have on average smaller feet than men.

Tink would cry what they meant is my big hairy testosterone addled feet won’t fit into fetishist tiny dainty shoes because I am a biological man and it hurts my lady feelings to be reminded of that in my head.

It’s quite startling to see how ineffective any ‘transition’ or affirmation of his dysphoria has been. He is very disturbed. Nothing has worked for him, in fact enabling him free access to women’s spaces highlights in every setting how he is not a woman.

• Men can only secrete puss into babies mouths rather than breastfeed.
• They experience negative side effects of cross sex hormones in terms of a ‘hot flush’ and seek to affirm that medical detriment into parity with women experiencing menopause.
• Men who can’t complete successfully against men in sport cheat their way into the female category where they can only affirm against beating women. They’re still losers and they know that.
• He wangs on about things being the law - ie toilets - but they never were and worse than Elspeth mild mannered factual corrections are Supreme Court judgements reminding him he will only ever be a man with the pc of gender reassignment.

Affirming men with gender dysphoria doesn’t work because it doesn’t cure. It’s a hungry beast that swallows up every reasonable accommodation and as it doesn’t satisfy it goes further and further until you end up in total female category annihilation (where speaking about biological sex is banned) and child sex abuse is celebrated (where chest feeding is concerned).

And at the end- we still have an overbearing angry and entitled man.

In my early morning musings I think a lot of this has been shaped by Emma Dunn and a:gender. Not woman blaming (he is his own nasty bully) - but for an entitled man he pays lip service in his WS to intersex people and how this impacts him.

The three censures of Emma - for light flashing on phone/ taking photos behind Naomi, for then making noises behind Alexander and then today mouthing and gurning to Tinkerbell. That’s a lot of attention seeking behaviour.

She is the only witness for Tinkerbell. He isn’t a member of a union and doesn’t appear to have much support - in general or in the room. It’s funny isn’t it how these fawning TRAs end up quite isolated in the Court room. Like the BFF - no one was there for the manager until it was pointed out and some randoms turned up the next day before beating a hasty retreat.

This pair bond is quite toxic. How Emma is enabled in her role I have no idea.

There is no full time role for someone saying I have standard binary sex characteristics with a few compelling stories so can I be tax payer funded to make bad policy? It’s entirely biased and unfair.

Emma has been chair of a:gender since at least 2020 - is this sort of post up for elections, is she appointed, how long do people stay chair of this kind of network usually?
https://www.civilservice.lgbt/news/2020/07/07/emma-dunn-allyship
And before she got this job, she worked at the Land Registry plus union and committee work. At that time she described herself as a "Straight Ally" with no mention at all about being intersex, which is funny considering how central that point is to her image nowadays...
https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2016/11/02/my-birthday-surprise/

At that time she described herself as a "Straight Ally"

Past experience says there’s a particular type of non-trans person who is absolutely desperate to be “an ally”, a bit like a “spicy straight” who is desperate to be “queer”.

And my god are they hardline in their allyship. It’s almost like that becomes some kind of identity for them too; they fawn over trans people while being absolutely vile to anyone who they see as “transphobic”. And, of course, almost everything is transphobic 🙄

It reminds me of women that used to get called “fag hags” because they were obsessed with gay men.

@SidewaysOtter
Reminded me a bit of Amanda Jettě Knox of Mr. Menno fame 🎶But they got nothing on me because I'm also trans!🎶 after she got tired of the secondary fame of only being an ally to others

I think the difficulty in the public sector is, in part, because once you are past your probation, it becomes very difficult to sack you. In addition, because the sickness benefits are so generous, it is very tempting for people with no morals to abuse the system.

My own experience was that about 50% (of the full sized team we should have had) were frantically firefighting to keep up with the workload 20% were chronically sick (10% genuinely, the other 10% probably at it) and we were 30% down on staff because anyone who came in saw what it was like and rapidly went to find something easier.

It was quite demoralizing and very hard going.

There are some lesbians who are the same. One, who is probably around 60 (so not the typical young cohort) I originally interacted with on Twix back in 2018. She is now all over Facebook posting furiously on any post that comes up. I think she despises women and has been so angry with something done to her when young, that she’s transferred every bit of fury onto denigrating the Terven.

There are an increasing number of MtF transactivists who now claim to be intersex. I believe fraudulently so as they don’t seem to wholly understand the DSD they claim to have. Guess there’s nothing to stop a straight ally from jumping on the same bandwagon. The lies told by transactivists are extreme and as much a feature of transactivism as the violence.

It was quite demoralizing and very hard going.

I bet, everyone knows who the shirkers are and everyone knows they'll never be sacked, it saps moral and increases the stress those who are still working have to labour under.

There has to be a change, we have to allow employers to sack people, but the Unions won't allow it, and the current government is increasing the, 'power of the worker'. The problem is that the power isn't going to the workers, it's being syphoned off by the workshy lazy arses grifters and is making the workplace more of a hell than it needs to be.

Senior Civil Service is full of staff with links to a:gender in their email signatures. Usually in jaunty rainbow colours. These are Deputy Director plus level (old Grade 5). But if course ST isn't a member (but is still having a rep as his witness).

Well, increasingly people just avoid employing workers as much as possible, too. Did someone say 'high unemployment'?

The lies told by transactivists are extreme and as much a feature of transactivism as the violence.

This.

It's a whole lifestyle system founded on 'if I feel it (or want to feel it) it's true.'

Which has led to a court listening to a man explaining that there is no evidence or proof but he feels ill intent inside and therefore there was, and he wants this validated and punished. And he hasn't found any more evidence, but if he were to go looking he feels he would find it, and therefore it should be admissible in court.

No one can listen to this and think indulging the fantasy this far was a good plan for anyone.

The judge's eyebrow-raise.

😁

Sorry for the late response. No, they don't. Expert reports need the author to swear to the truth of the contents. Other documents do not. As with other evidence, the tribunal has to decide if it is reliable and how much weight, if any, to give it.

I haven't had time to read the exchange that led to the spreadsheet being introduced but, if the claimant wants to introduce a document that is not in the bundle, it is up to the respondent to object and justify why it should not be allowed. I don't know what objections, if any, the respondent put forward. It might be significant that tribunals are used to dealing with claimants who don't have any legal representation and don't understand the rules on introducing evidence. Tribunals generally lean over backwards to accommodate such claimants.

It’s the best part about the robots and AI, they have no rights and hoover up everyone else’s work to present back as their own.

Anyway - back to this jaw dropping tribunal!

He said he wasn’t part of a Union. I don’t think he said he wasn’t part of a:gender.

YY, spot on. We’ve all had experience of these women, and some men.

Absolutely. I agree that he might win on some points and SEEN may need to appeal. As in the Sheffield hospital tribunal which wasn’t appealed, but left to stand. It arguably wouldn’t have survived the SC ruling because the one point the claimant won on was that asking him if he was going to use the women’s changing room was harassment on the grounds of his PC GR because “a cisgender woman wouldn’t have been asked that” 🙄

@WomanInnaWoods @WrongKindOfFeminist

He refashions whatever he hears into whatever he wants

I find people with personality disorders very disorienting for that reason. Their approach and responses are often startlingly at odds with what most people understand as appropriate.

Yes to what you both have said. I think ST has much bigger problems than whether or not he can hold down a job. And so does whoever lives with him! Been there, done that! (thankfully got out of it, and have never not been glad that I did)

But isn't that the wrong comparator? The question should be whether a man without the PC of GR would be treated in the same way, which I think he would (certainly if any FWR posters were nearby at the time).

This "in your words" interjection from the judge gives me a bit of hope.