Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 2

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5546841-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-follow-on-from-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

I can’t imagine the GLP backing a trans case and not trumpeting it far and wide if only to divert attention from them effectively paying Jolyon for using GLP funds to back Jolyons personal case. There must be another backer

That’s it.

Except it erases Tinkerbell as a person if he reads sex realist material. 🧚🏼‍♂️

So his friend sent him some while he was on sick to be more offended.

He’s died a 1000 deaths but is still here to fight the good fight. Against transphobia and de-transitioners.

In basic essence- everyone and everything is solely about C all the time.

There is a well known "pump head syndrome" where patients placed on bypass (I think) for a long time to have AAs repaired, have extreme long term personality changes afterwards.
There was a long running thread on here last year, with a poor woman whose husband of 30+ years had a total (and terrifying) personality change.

At least today has shown that we weren't paranoid when we thought people were taking note of who liked what and wanted something done about it (to put it mildly).
The fact that someone summoned ST to the Teams chat for an Autistic Women talk because Elspeth posted is very telling. Hope NC digs deeper.
Allegation that SEEN doesn't tackle equality of sexes rather batshit considering most of Friday was spent on how the adjustment was that ST couldn't/ shouldn't see SEEN posts.

It was Upton entourage in SP, I think, sitting directly behind NC and CE to read their screens. They were moved,

What a waste of time. Could we turn this into gender identity ideology is not WORIADS?

NC has commented that she would love to take on a case of not WORIADS.

Yes, I agree, and I think this is the one - decent chance here that ST will be unselfaware enough to confirm that enough batshittery is essential to his belief system for NC to show that at least this extreme form is not WORIADS. Which would be great, even though this would not be binding at first tier tribunal.

It's difficult to say. A remote observer who can't see him or his demeanour might be convinced by his words. I think a 'neutral' observer in the room is far less likely to be taken in when they can see these words are being delivered by a large, articulate, confident and sometimes verging on the aggressive male.

WORIADS needs the belief to be coherent, doesn’t it? I’d love to see that.

Not GLP funding - they’d want to be there and take the credit online.

https://oldsquare.co.uk/people/robin-white/ was doing it pro bono.

Lewis Silkin have form for pro trans 🏳️‍⚧️ stance and might be funding it pro bono to see if they can create precedence for more trans cases.

They do have a barrister for a three week trial who will need paying.

So maybe low costs as most services were free - but a backer for the trial?

It’s embarrassing for Lewis Silkin - surely there are more sympathetic cases? If Reddit dont have anything to say on Tinkerbell you hardly have the trans allies in your corner.

Let’s say he loses, if he’s foolish enough to appeal, NC et al would have a field day.

I'm not sure how there would be any ruling on GI being WORIADS or not in this case as Tempest is arguing discrimination based on the PC of GR. He's not claiming discrimination on the grounds of belief as far as I can see

Yes, I agree.

Interesting case here that Naomi may wish to refer to oldsquare.co.uk/pride-displays-in-workplaces-not-discriminatory-against-claimants-religious-belief-or-disability/

Surely this is the elephant in the room.

The air must be heavy with it??

@WanderingBundle

😍

My take on that (and tbh I haven’t read the written reasons), is that the amalgamation of the LGB with the T is problematic. Was he upset because of the same-sex stuff, or the trans stuff? If it was the LGB, then absolutely he was not discriminated against.

The trans stuff is more specific.

She didn't seem apologetic or embarrassed that she was causing serious concern. I think most people in these circumstances would have been mortified. The exchanges were quite long and the judge basically had to tell her to put her phone away.

Maybe just youthful glued to the phone? Though TT said something odd in all capitals

I'm surprised that phones are allowed to be on in the Tribunal at all.

She not a youngster

@MyrtleLion "On reasonable adjustments, the Tribunal accepted that Mr Jennings’ disabilities and associated phobia of Pride imagery could place him at a substantial disadvantage and that the DWP knew or ought to have known of those disabilities. Nevertheless, it concluded that the adjustments sought (neutral workspaces, restrictions on colleagues’ displays, or homeworking) would either not have adequately addressed the problem or would have unreasonably interfered with the rights of other employees.

The decision illustrates the balancing exercise employers must carry out where competing protected characteristics and rights fall to be accommodated.* The Tribunal ultimately held that the DWP’s inclusivity measures were justified and that the Claimant’s proposed adjustments were not reasonable.*"

SEEN never sought to stop Pride imagery - but Tinkerbell wanted to stop SEEN imagery. An unreasonable interference with the rights of other employees.

We dont know if anyone acted or is acting pro bono.

Here it is

NC - [discussing the order, came in late]
Cannot hear the judge.

Apparently someone seated at bench behind the advocates phone has been flashing. WARNING - WE CANNOT HEAR THE JUDGE

AL - hopefully, you should have the C's supplemental bundle as well
J - inaudible

When I first read this it sounded like the phone was flashing the warning 'WARNING - WE CANNOT HEAR THE JUDGE' but on re-reading ...

Does this mean that the observer's phone flash was working as if they were taking stills?

Was this Emma Dunn?

https://www.civilservice.lgbt/news/2020/07/07/emma-dunn-allyship

in previous tribunals counsel has sometimes taken instruction from their client by phone. Judges dont seem to like it but I doubt they could stop it. The judge did question if Elspeth was recording, he should have questioned this.