Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 2

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5546841-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-follow-on-from-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

Why are all these courts incapable of muting non participant observers for the duration?

NC: para 24 of your WS - you say, when you saw post you were v upset - if ppl like SEEN say sex is binary & immutable they are saying ppl like you are unwell / indoctrinated if they don't subscribe to gender identity.
NC: Where does the post say there is no such thing as gender identity?
ST: Well if you say sex is binary & immutable, that is the outcome.
NC: It's not actually saying there is no such thing as GI, it's saying that if / when it comes to being male for female mattering, it's sex (not GI) that matters.
ST: I don't agree with that position.

😍 Naomi ❤

From TT:

NC: I'm not asking you to agree the position, I'm asking you to agree what the post says.
ST: Have already said how I read that post, can't add more I think

NC: You say that SEEN existence, that post, GC views, frame your existence as a debate. That's something you've picked up?
ST: No it's what I think

NC: Hyperbolic, isn't it? Nobody debating "existence", only what consequences there are?
ST: Disagree, not hyperbolic, it all basically means whether ppl like me exist

NC: The discussion is only about what consequences your GI should have for other people?
ST: That is part of it but not all of it.

The bleeding could well be down to polyps. I've had that. You most likely need to have a scan of your uterus.

It's a historic misspelling - manopause, from the old Norse.

The switch though.

He's like a shit Groucho Marx, he only wants to be in clubs that don't want him.

I guess that the money might come from these allies?

ST: Disagree, not hyperbolic, it all basically means whether ppl like me exist

Oh FFS of course you bloody exist.

NC: "Don't you understand that your claim to be a woman is contentious to some"

I wonder if this is the first time the judge has heard about this particular... predilection?

Well that scene in Reservoir Dogs was very much about ear work!

From TT:

NC: Suppose I say I am indecisive, I'm Leo with the moon in Gemini? You might say, "I don't believe in astrology" and I say "Ah well agree to disagree" and we go back to work. Isn't that a better model?

ST: Disagree, astrology not contentious, but if it is contentious don't raise it at all
NC: Don't you understand that your claim to be a woman is contentious to some?
ST: I don't post about it, I just want to go to work and do my job

NC: I've suggested that better way of proceeding is agree to differ. If I said that you not believing in astrology denies my existence - that would be pretty disruptive at work wouldn't it?

ST: But ppl don't talk about astrology in the workplace!

J: Analogies are not always helpful.
NC: I have finished with that one.

Indeed. If he didn't, we all wouldn't be having such fun on a Tuesday afternoon!

As he gets more frustrated the breathiness lessens, and the male power of his voice starts to break through.

This is one of the things I find so infuriating. All the women's stuff is such a pain in the arse and inconvenient at best, yet they try to mirror having these as if they are wonderful and womanly.

I would happily go without and cannot wait for menopause to be done with the whole load of shitty symptoms. TWATS

Mother Nature is a bitch.

did the judge sound irritated when he told NC to stop the analogy?

I have seen a comment somewhere, I won’t get it quite right, along the lines of ‘if you say ‘do you like my pet hamster’ and I say ‘that isn’t a hamster it is a crocodile’ it doesn’t mean your pet doesn’t exist, it just means your pet is not a hamster.’

NC: You say not asking for special privileges, but you do ask that whenever there are single sex spaces eg ppl should treat you as if you were a woman? ST: If that is what work policy says then I can, not demanding otherwise.

Perhaps the observers can advise if it looked like his mouth briefly filled with vomit?

I suspect that’s why NC deliberately distanced herself from him - to make him speak up.

Nearly always happens in these cases.

From TT:

NC: You say not asking for special privileges, but you do ask that whenever there are single sex spaces eg ppl should treat you as if you were a woman?
ST: If that is what work policy says then I can, not demanding otherwise.

J: I think you acknowledge though that their might be issues, discussion about that?
ST: Yes - as I've said - but not on company time

NC: Your WS says here that you think SEEN saying decisions should be on sex not gender, should not be said?
ST: That was DEFRA policy in 2022

My note: he's rather selectively interested in company time!

J: Analogies are not always helpful.
NC: I have finished with that one

<judge giving notice not to bring up Pete>

Ah, I was kind of hoping that might happen.
Can't be sustained, good.