Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal 29th September 10am

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Hello

Don't know much about this case other than Naomi Cunningham is representing Ms Kelly.

If you want to observe send an email to

[email protected]

Subject line

Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

Ask for the link and pin to observe.

State you are a member of the public and give your full name and the email address you will use to access the tribunal.

Anyone interested?

From TT

NC - that it was happening.
MK - aware of a man in Luton transitioning, staff talk, loosely part my team, used to go to Luton pre-covid. SOmeone mentioned unisex toilets, so suspected. Knew he had started presenting as F, 2017-18. Told they had changed to provide him a mixed

MK - sex toilet, think his team were briefed locally. Was part of my wider team. He came to visit, I was JCC rep for 2nd floor, people approach with issues. 3 women came in a bit of a fluster because a man had been in their toilets. Realised who it was, said he's only here a day

She'll go to anyone who is prepared to vigorously scratch her back by her tail and tell her repeatedly what a beautiful girl she is.

Ignore her telling you she's being starved at mine, she lies.

From TT

MK - they were upset, clearly didn't feel could say anything to him. I slowly joined the dots that L were allowing men to use ladies loos, wasn't sitn in Edinburgh. I knew the company must be supporting him using ladies loos. These men are ID as F they have just joined must be

She calls him 'this chap'. Go Maria!

From TT

MK - policy, so I looked and couldn't see anything. Men joined ID'ing as F.
NC - you didn't raise at time, why?
MK - Maya Forestater won her appeal in 2020 I think, these were pre-Maya days i didn't think I could raise it, women came to me because they didn't know who

All cats lie to get what they want - it is part of their charm

From TT

MK - to talk to in 2019. When Maya won I knew I could raise it but before I couldn't.
NC - what did you feel they would say.
MK - I indicated I was a feminist and F in eng. I didn't feel we had an env or committee to raise it at. No individual either. Don't know if it would

So has she not raised the issue with the employer before issuing tribunal claim (or letter before claim?)?

From TT

have been a disciplinary, but i'd be a transphobe. I have a clean record at work, I thought I'd be marked as a transphobe, not an environment to raise it.
NC - grounds say between 1-3 trans ID males using loos, no need for names, but how aware.
MK - A joined during covid

She must have done something internally because claimants are expected to exhaust company policies before tribunal.

From TT

MK - we were allowed to work in office during covid, I became aware in Sept 2022 when more people around. I observed. They have a neutral name, I was intruigued might be a new woman. Tried to work out if was a woman, are we increasing F stats? Over 6ft, clearly male, using neutra

I assume she’s just going through it chronologically?

Persons A, B and C? So three of them?

From TT

MK - name. I haven't seen in F loo, but we discussed yesterday others have. Person B v tall man walking through office with feminine hair, new person caught my eye, not sitting near me. YOu notice new people, not big office. ANother gender neutral name. It was B I met coming into

I'm now in the room but have my real name on display which I didn't want and now don't know how to change it

This case isn't about individual likes or dislikes, it's about the law.

I'm in no way diminishing the value of MK's brave and painful evidence, she is so courageous and I hope there is lots and lots of support lined up for her after this ordeal.

BUT I'd love to see a witness saying

'I'm lucky - I don't have heavy bleeding; I was never assaulted by a man in a women's toilet.
But I'm a woman, and the law says I am entitled to single sex facilities, and my employer is breaking the law by denying me that right. IT'S THE LAW'

This would clarify that it's not just about distress caused to individuals, or as sassanach suggests, likes and dislikes, it's about applying the law [and building regs, and health and safety regs, and workplace regs] correctly and fairly.

From TT

MK - loo. C joined summer 2023, told a new woman joining the team. Great. person told me they are trans so don't count for that. So several, over time one has left, think they were told to use F loo, never confirmed they were M, but in discussions discovered I was correct

You can't unfortunately

I have segregated sex toilets at home.

I use the one next to the kitchen.

The cat uses his litter tray.

Everyone is happy.

I assume these individuals will have learnt from the NHS Fife case and will not be giving evidence? This will just be about Leonardo policy rather than individuals?

From TT

NC - how do you feel about them?
MK - I don't care as long as they are good engineers, but when I saw one in the ladies loo.... decided to speak to line manager. Can you confirm whether toilet policy is based on sex or gender? Do we have a policy, why don't I know about it

I don't like it either but anyone acting in bad faith could find themselves with a criminal record for contempt of court.

From TT

MK - done by stealth. How did I feel? Annoyed veyr annoyed. Nobody has discussed this, it had happened in an underhand way. Annoyed, really v annoyed.
NC-??
MK - the ladies in an eng firm is probably the one place you never need to queue, rarely see other women in there so few

From TT

MK - the door is opened cautiously to not startle other F colleagues. I had touched the door and the male colleague pushed through, not considering might surprise women in there, the women don't enter that way. Seemed unaware of unwritten social contract, perky and pushing through

She is interesting on the difference between men and women. How women behave towards each other - consideration, awareness of not wanting to surprise or discomfort another woman, etc - and the approach of males who move and act as men.

From TT

MK - so surprised by that and him using the loo.
NC - in relation to all 3, how likely colleagues might think they are F?
MK - A and B I had no idea who they were, thought they might be presenting as F, but they were moving, height etc, women would know they were men