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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
Enough4me · 22/07/2025 22:33

Tandora · 22/07/2025 21:39

Not sure what you mean by “falls at the first hurdle”?

Our sense of/ awareness of being male or female is what is referred to as our gender identity. It’s got nothing to do with stereotypes. You say you have no gender identity, but if you are aware/ know your sex to be female , then you do.

Thats why DU says she is female. You all keep mocking her/ being incredulous about that, but that is exactly what it is to be a transwoman. It’s to be aware / have a sense of self as female, despite being registered male at birth.

I am what I am because I am
Your very being isn't an imagined form but is based in the reality of who you are, from that first moment the sperm cell was an X and not a Y my being is female.
Upton is male and can never remove the Y sperm from his history line that created him.
His thoughts may be of dresses but they are within a man's brain.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 22/07/2025 22:33

nauticant · 22/07/2025 22:29

I thought at worse KS would be an unhinged zealot but I hadn't expected that she would have engaged in this kind of behaviour. Putting aside the anti-science stuff that's alarming in a senior medic, being this untrustworthy is a very bad look.

You can't prove that! She's a doctor so it must really somehow be a good look! 😂

Right I'm so tired from night-owling and trying to fit the rest of life around observing the tribunal. Sleep tight all. Until tomorrow!

rebmacesrevda · 22/07/2025 22:33

Waitwhat23 · 22/07/2025 22:31

Ah, yes - sorry to confuse. Yes, I'm talking about the Forensic guy.

I bet he knows what sex he is.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 22/07/2025 22:34

nauticant · 22/07/2025 22:29

I thought at worse KS would be an unhinged zealot but I hadn't expected that she would have engaged in this kind of behaviour. Putting aside the anti-science stuff that's alarming in a senior medic, being this untrustworthy is a very bad look.

Aye yes but you see, she is a doctor and therefore trustworthy because she follows the GMC.

Brefugee · 22/07/2025 22:35

littlbrowndog · 22/07/2025 22:05

It’s still on. 🙌🙌 cmon lionesses

am also not womaning correctly and am jumping round excitedly.

nauticant · 22/07/2025 22:35

So, to absolutely no one's surprise, The Scottish Daily Express correctly identified the scoop of the day while the BBC went with something relatively trivial and distracting.

I keep on thinking that my view of the BBC has hit a low but they always manage to exceed my expectations.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 22:35

Heggettypeg · 22/07/2025 21:41

Yes 💯 to this.
Never "just" be kind.
Pause.
Engage your brain.
Consider everyone involved, not just the one who is whimpering and making puppy-dog eyes.
Then be kind wisely.

Be respectful to yourself and others. Be thoughtful and considered. Be compassionate but understand the road to hell is paved with good intention. Understand that bad people can do great deeds and good people can do terrible ones. Always be alert to the reality that not everyone is sincere and honest as you might think. Question yourself. Test what you 'know to be true' regularly, as the willingness to change your mind is a strength not a weakness. Do not assume. Remind yourself that everyone has a blind spot and try to identify yours. Listen to others who have different experiences but don't try to apply everything to your own life. Recognise the wisdom of others.

Sod the shallowness of being kind.

MyAmpleSheep · 22/07/2025 22:35

Tandora · 22/07/2025 21:48

Disappointed in this over-simplification from a paediatrician. Luckily you have more informed colleagues .

Edited

Oh FFS. I don't think you could be more of a condescending twat if you tried. My opinion, only, of course.

Edited to say, if you want to go to other online places and declaim Mumsnet as the place you got told you were a condescending twat, then that's fine by me. Just spell it correctly.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 22/07/2025 22:36

BoeotianNightmare · 22/07/2025 17:24

@@AmaryllisNightAndDay and others, has NC been using "he/him" to refer to DU?
Thanks for all the updates, been dipping in and out around work.

Yes, and the judge agreed to it because Dr Upton's sex is very relevant to the case. If it hadn't been about specifically about sex and gender reassignment then the judge might not have agreed (and NC might not have insisted anyway)

Cailleach1 · 22/07/2025 22:37

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 22/07/2025 21:56

I've come up with this great new banking idea.

At my new bank, your balance is whatever you say it is.

Anyone want to invest?

Sure. As long as my investment is what I say it is too.

Charabanc · 22/07/2025 22:37

Tandora · 22/07/2025 22:30

I’m sure I have email chains like this

You have as much understanding of email headers as you do of sex.

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 22/07/2025 22:37

Off topic, but requested earlier (sorry, can't remember the poster, it was 2 long pages ago).

If you have a random collection of ingredients and need a recipe to use them up, download the Supercook app (free). It's a green spoon in a pinky purple cape, white background. You add the ingredients you have in the house to your 'pantry', and then the app suggests every possible recipe you can make using them. You can search by ingredient to use up, cuisine type or even meal type.

Saves a fortune, uses up what you have and prevents food waste.

Saved me having to go out food shopping today, did pantry Greek beans.

WhatAGreenAndPleasantLand · 22/07/2025 22:38

Are you suggesting that some men are lesser than others by virtue of the sort of things they like to do?

I am close to someone with a DSD who cannot (easily) have children because of it and this constant assertion that he falls lower on the 'spectrum of being male' because of it makes me feel disgusted - and depressed at the lack of critical thinking people need before they proclaim things about others.

It's not worth getting into it with people who are happy to uncritically post stuff like that. Just accept that many are led by ignorance into judgment.

Bannedontherun · 22/07/2025 22:38

@Tandora What you keep going on about is not the common experience of most human beings.

We all know our sex, based on our external appearance, as at about three years old.

it is my own personal experience (as a birthing person) both my children registered the sex that they were at about three and then visually sought out what there sexed behaviour ought to be.

that is the gendering behaviour as is understood.

People who do not relate to their sexed bodies have a problem. There is zippo science on why that might be to do with chemical, biology

So it is likely it is psychologically rooted.

BTW i do not buy that you are who you say you are.

Tandora · 22/07/2025 22:40

Bannedontherun · 22/07/2025 22:38

@Tandora What you keep going on about is not the common experience of most human beings.

We all know our sex, based on our external appearance, as at about three years old.

it is my own personal experience (as a birthing person) both my children registered the sex that they were at about three and then visually sought out what there sexed behaviour ought to be.

that is the gendering behaviour as is understood.

People who do not relate to their sexed bodies have a problem. There is zippo science on why that might be to do with chemical, biology

So it is likely it is psychologically rooted.

BTW i do not buy that you are who you say you are.

Nope, you are misinformed.

by the way I do not believe you are who you say you are

this is weird and I have no idea what you mean by it.

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 22/07/2025 22:40

Tandora · 22/07/2025 22:30

I’m sure I have email chains like this

Are they actually like that or do they just identify as being like that?

TimeForATerf · 22/07/2025 22:41

PersonIrresponsible · 22/07/2025 18:17

I agree. I wrote and complained and got a very condescending email in return - emphatic that the BBC are fair and impartial.

I despair because it's really, really not difficult to report this tribunal much more neutrally.

Aunty Beeb is now revealing he was assigned male at birth and showing it.

I’ve stopped complaining to the British Bastard Corporation as every reply I received, without fail, says they are fair and impartial. They clearly have a selection of automated responses their complaints department pick from to generate a bog standard reply.

Tandora · 22/07/2025 22:41

WhatAGreenAndPleasantLand · 22/07/2025 22:38

Are you suggesting that some men are lesser than others by virtue of the sort of things they like to do?

I am close to someone with a DSD who cannot (easily) have children because of it and this constant assertion that he falls lower on the 'spectrum of being male' because of it makes me feel disgusted - and depressed at the lack of critical thinking people need before they proclaim things about others.

It's not worth getting into it with people who are happy to uncritically post stuff like that. Just accept that many are led by ignorance into judgment.

There is no need to be offended on your friend’s behalf, no one has said he “falls lower on the spectrum of being male” you are creating straw men.

Enough4me · 22/07/2025 22:42

A straw man knows he's a man?

moto748e · 22/07/2025 22:44

nauticant · 22/07/2025 22:35

So, to absolutely no one's surprise, The Scottish Daily Express correctly identified the scoop of the day while the BBC went with something relatively trivial and distracting.

I keep on thinking that my view of the BBC has hit a low but they always manage to exceed my expectations.

Oh, this. I've said before about Keir Starmer, every time he opens his mouth, I like him a little less, and the same can be said of the BBC. Entirely their fault if they have lost the trust of the public.

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 22/07/2025 22:46

Enough4me · 22/07/2025 22:42

A straw man knows he's a man?

Only if he's seen his chromosomes.

WhatAGreenAndPleasantLand · 22/07/2025 22:46

Mollyollydolly · 22/07/2025 19:18

I'm still struggling to understand, and have been struggling to understand since February how an organisation as large as the NHS doesn't have IT experts who trawl the emails of witnesses to make sure nothing is missed for the Tribunal. Is that what other large organisations do? Why would you leave it to individuals who (being charitable) might not be computer savvy?

Sorry I'm a bit behind, but yes I'd also be interested into what rules govern the methods for extracting relevant documents. Surely some standard search terms would be laid down etc?
What if you suspected your email was on dodgy grounds as you were writing it and T00K act10n to make them les_s 5earchable?

myplace · 22/07/2025 22:46

Typed an answer to some dilevelence and deleted it.

Interesting, the reactions still roll in hours later, and from unfamiliar names. Several people have mentioned they were unaware until these threads and are now scrabbling to catch up with a situation they are shocked by.

So many more people are reading and learning, than just those of us riffing on recipes and comparing outrage!

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 22/07/2025 22:47

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 22/07/2025 22:34

Aye yes but you see, she is a doctor and therefore trustworthy because she follows the GMC.

The cynicism of this astounds me. This is what ‘weaponising’ looks like. Using the widespread expectation that certain occupations demand integrity & honesty, to bolster claims of that very integrity & honesty that’s asserted informed every step of those involved’s words & actions, only to be exposed for failing to comply, more than once, with court ordered disclosure relevant to those very words & actions in the aftermath of ‘the incident’.

1 or 2 of them not disclosing the emails exchanged would be plausible - unacceptable given the court orders, but definitely possible if they weren’t all as active. But all 6 of them? 🤨

Annoyedone · 22/07/2025 22:47

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 22/07/2025 22:40

Are they actually like that or do they just identify as being like that?

How do you know. Have they been tested?

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