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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #37

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.
Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
WhatAGreenAndPleasantLand · 22/07/2025 22:48

Tandora · 22/07/2025 22:41

There is no need to be offended on your friend’s behalf, no one has said he “falls lower on the spectrum of being male” you are creating straw men.

You are telling me that I've never heard things I've heard.

How on earth you think you can know this better than I do absolutely boggles the mind.

Just making shit up about people and their lives.

FleurFloor · 22/07/2025 22:48

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 22/07/2025 22:37

Off topic, but requested earlier (sorry, can't remember the poster, it was 2 long pages ago).

If you have a random collection of ingredients and need a recipe to use them up, download the Supercook app (free). It's a green spoon in a pinky purple cape, white background. You add the ingredients you have in the house to your 'pantry', and then the app suggests every possible recipe you can make using them. You can search by ingredient to use up, cuisine type or even meal type.

Saves a fortune, uses up what you have and prevents food waste.

Saved me having to go out food shopping today, did pantry Greek beans.

Green, purple and white - how apt!

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 22/07/2025 22:48

myplace · 22/07/2025 22:46

Typed an answer to some dilevelence and deleted it.

Interesting, the reactions still roll in hours later, and from unfamiliar names. Several people have mentioned they were unaware until these threads and are now scrabbling to catch up with a situation they are shocked by.

So many more people are reading and learning, than just those of us riffing on recipes and comparing outrage!

And it’s worth, again, given much kudos to @nauticantfor her excellent thread management. Because it’s been so well curated, anyone late to this can track the whole thing back to the beginning & get all the missed information. 🙌

Waitwhat23 · 22/07/2025 22:50

nauticant · 22/07/2025 22:35

So, to absolutely no one's surprise, The Scottish Daily Express correctly identified the scoop of the day while the BBC went with something relatively trivial and distracting.

I keep on thinking that my view of the BBC has hit a low but they always manage to exceed my expectations.

Scottish Daily Express have been impressive on this from the off -

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/comment/scottish-express-referring-dr-beth-34670335

Why the Scottish Express is referring to Dr Beth Upton as a 'man' in tribunal

Rather than referring to the transgender doctor as 'she' or constructing sentences so that he is only ever referred to as 'Dr Upton', we have accepted the biological reality at the heart of this intriguing case

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/comment/scottish-express-referring-dr-beth-34670335

Tandora · 22/07/2025 22:54

WhatAGreenAndPleasantLand · 22/07/2025 22:48

You are telling me that I've never heard things I've heard.

How on earth you think you can know this better than I do absolutely boggles the mind.

Just making shit up about people and their lives.

Apologies I thought you meant that was being said in the context of the discussion on this thread.

Obviously I don’t know everything anyone has ever said to your friend lol.

WithSilverBells · 22/07/2025 22:56

Charabanc · 22/07/2025 22:37

You have as much understanding of email headers as you do of sex.

... calling the electromagnetic spectrum 'linear' shows a lack of understanding too.

Hate celery, love celeriac

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 22/07/2025 22:56

SwivelEyedAndProud · 22/07/2025 19:03

I have tried to ignore but am now just scrolling past so much that I am missing the useful posts too. I give up!

This is one of the reasons for the prolific posting.

That poster is able to turn any thread they post on into the "look at me!" show.

They are a bad faith poster who makes a reasonable enough show of "just wanting to contribute to the discussion" to keep drawing replies.

If people want to have this discussion again* *that's fine, I'd prefer it if it could be done on another thread because I've read it all before, more than once.

Alternatively if anyone wants to skip to the end of the book as it were, the advanced search function on a poster's name will show up threads where these discussions have taken place before.

NapoleonsToe · 22/07/2025 22:57

I see that Kate Searle is patient safety lead in ED. Jesus wept.

Tandora · 22/07/2025 22:57

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 22/07/2025 22:56

This is one of the reasons for the prolific posting.

That poster is able to turn any thread they post on into the "look at me!" show.

They are a bad faith poster who makes a reasonable enough show of "just wanting to contribute to the discussion" to keep drawing replies.

If people want to have this discussion again* *that's fine, I'd prefer it if it could be done on another thread because I've read it all before, more than once.

Alternatively if anyone wants to skip to the end of the book as it were, the advanced search function on a poster's name will show up threads where these discussions have taken place before.

There’s really no need to call me a bad faith poster just because you disagree with me. It’s completely unnecessary. I’ve been very patient but I’m getting tired of the constant personal attacks and bullying . You are perfectly free to ignore my posts, if others wish to engage with me they can.

Largesso · 22/07/2025 22:57

Foran spends some time on another line of argument NC is developing — that 6 senior NHS managers conspired to stitch SP up. And they then included DU in that chain.

I love NCs forensic legalling. This is even more scandalous than the lack of disclosure because the lack of disclosure was to disguise the collusion.

They had 6 opportunities to submit that email the first time around. none of them did.

That is proof in itself of prior agreement between them…

…and is perhaps why KS went to that word ‘proof’ in her response. A slip that reveals that they have discussed this and decided it can’t be proved.

On top of this, of course, is the initial attempt to deny the first I/x was an I/x.

moto748e · 22/07/2025 22:58

NapoleonsToe · 22/07/2025 22:57

I see that Kate Searle is patient safety lead in ED. Jesus wept.

Well, right now she is.

WhatAGreenAndPleasantLand · 22/07/2025 22:59

One more thing - I promise I've been following all 36 threads - as much as I can. But "ED" - does that sometimes mean Esther Davidson and other times mean Emergency Department?

FallinUltra · 22/07/2025 22:59

Angrymum22 · 22/07/2025 21:26

If nothing else comes from this debacle I hope every medical school in the country is busy including a very robust course on how to observe biological sex at birth, and what investigations are required if undeterminable, into their curriculum from this September.

It is astonishing that fully qualified doctors are claiming ignorance, At my dental school we were taught embryology, conception to birth with comprehensive tuition of how every organ system develops, obviously emphasis on the head and neck. But I could confidently observe a babies sex and probably still name a few of the common syndromes identifiable at birth.

Anything out of the ordinary is pretty obvious and time to get the geneticist involved.

Let’s include compulsory reading of The Emperor’s New Clothes as well.

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 22/07/2025 22:59

FleurFloor · 22/07/2025 22:48

Green, purple and white - how apt!

Yep, I know!

Supercook, all the way 🤭

Taytoface · 22/07/2025 23:01

See that is the thing about spectrums as opposed to binaries. You can be taller or shorter, bigger or smaller, manlier or womanlier. Lots of opportunities to attach value judgements as to where on the scale you may be deemed to fall.

Binaries are just a statement of fact. A or B. Top or bottom. Male or female. No comparison needed to determine classification, zero value judgements attached.

Tandora · 22/07/2025 23:01

WithSilverBells · 22/07/2025 22:56

... calling the electromagnetic spectrum 'linear' shows a lack of understanding too.

Hate celery, love celeriac

Whatever, I’m not a physicist. Maybe linear is the wrong word, what I meant is that it implies a sort of continuous distribution/ spread of things , from one end to another, like the light/ colours in a rainbow.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 22/07/2025 23:02

Charabanc · 22/07/2025 22:37

You have as much understanding of email headers as you do of sex.

Grin
oviraptor21 · 22/07/2025 23:03

WhatAGreenAndPleasantLand · 22/07/2025 22:59

One more thing - I promise I've been following all 36 threads - as much as I can. But "ED" - does that sometimes mean Esther Davidson and other times mean Emergency Department?

Yes.

JanesLittleGirl · 22/07/2025 23:03

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 20:28

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

I've never tried to skin a cat but the only sensible way to skin a rabbit is to cut the skin all the way around the middle and then pull the top half up and the bottom half down. Why would skinning cats be different?

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 23:03

The level of arrogance it takes to tell someone that someone can decide their sex is off the scale.

I've seen two very good examples of this today.

OnlyAWomansHeart · 22/07/2025 23:04

WhatAGreenAndPleasantLand · 22/07/2025 22:46

Sorry I'm a bit behind, but yes I'd also be interested into what rules govern the methods for extracting relevant documents. Surely some standard search terms would be laid down etc?
What if you suspected your email was on dodgy grounds as you were writing it and T00K act10n to make them les_s 5earchable?

It’s a particular area of legal procedure and really you need good legal counsel to guide you through the process. The fact 1000 more pages have been disclosed since Feb goes to show no one did their job the first time around.

I hope I’m right in thinking same rules apply to Employment Tribunals in Scotland
https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part31

31.6 Standard disclosure requires a party to disclose only–
(a) the documents on which he relies; and
(b) the documents which –
(i) adversely affect his own case;
(ii) adversely affect another party’s case; or
(iii) support another party’s case; and
(c) the documents which he is required to disclose by a relevant practice direction.

Duty of search
31.7
(1) When giving standard disclosure, a party is required to make a reasonable search for documents falling within rule 31.6(b) or (c).
(2) The factors relevant in deciding the reasonableness of a search include the following –
(a) the number of documents involved;
(b) the nature and complexity of the proceedings;
(c) the ease and expense of retrieval of any particular document; and
(d) the significance of any document which is likely to be located during the search.
(3) Where a party has not searched for a category or class of document on the grounds that to do so would be unreasonable, he must state this in his disclosure statement and identify the category or class of document.

It goes on a fair bit - but of interest is that each party has to make a statement of disclosure saying here is what I looked for, how we did it and to the best of my knowledge this is everything you need.

I’d love to know who signed off on that at Fife.

PART 31 – DISCLOSURE AND INSPECTION OF DOCUMENTS – Civil Procedure Rules

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part31

WithSilverBells · 22/07/2025 23:04

Tandora · 22/07/2025 23:01

Whatever, I’m not a physicist. Maybe linear is the wrong word, what I meant is that it implies a sort of continuous distribution/ spread of things , from one end to another, like the light/ colours in a rainbow.

Edited

You are completely out of your depth in everything you post.

Bannedontherun · 22/07/2025 23:04

I fucking did what i said i would not and ordered a tandoori. Slaps myself.

Anyway if everybody accepted their sexed body and expressed themselves however they wished but stayed in their own sex bodied lane.

we would all be okay.

A big ask i suppose.

Tandora · 22/07/2025 23:04

Taytoface · 22/07/2025 23:01

See that is the thing about spectrums as opposed to binaries. You can be taller or shorter, bigger or smaller, manlier or womanlier. Lots of opportunities to attach value judgements as to where on the scale you may be deemed to fall.

Binaries are just a statement of fact. A or B. Top or bottom. Male or female. No comparison needed to determine classification, zero value judgements attached.

This is the most absurd argument I’ve heard yet. There’s loads of value judgement attached to binaries- good/ evil, dark/ light, beautiful/ ugly. Binaries are associated with black and white/ hierarchical systems of thought and rarely reflect the true complexity of the empirical world.

BeLemonNow · 22/07/2025 23:05

I sometimes use ChatGPT for recipe ideas from particular ingredients. Oc you can specify what you like so include standard store cupboard ingredients etc.

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