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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26

1000 replies

nauticant · 15/05/2025 22:36

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was doubtful whether pubilc access for remote viewing would be reinstated but recent developments (as of mid May) suggest that this might actually become available again.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25

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GallantKumquat · 04/07/2025 21:51

Waitwhat23 · 04/07/2025 21:13

I was off and I still found it hard to keep up. Fast moving doesn't even really cover it!

I think the similarity with the Bailey vs Linaeus Veterinary LTD is illuminating. I was extremely skeptical about that case and found it plausible that Maya could be a difficult client, especially when the issue involved a beloved pet. But as the case unfolded a highly intelligent malignant narcissist, Dr. Elizabeth Munro, was revealed to sit at the centre, one willing to lie and distort to damage the character of someone who wouldn't affirm, but who was so overpowered by their emotions that they couldn't take precautions to adequately conceal their deceit.

With the Sandie Peggie case, I was likewise somewhat skeptical. It seemed that Peggie was perhaps a difficult and unsympathetic individual even if her compliant about sharing a changing facility with Upton was 100% justified. But as the case progressed, little by little Upton's own manipulative narcissism and penchant for distortion and dishonesty was revealed. It was riveting! And high drama to watch it unfold in real time!

IDareSay · 04/07/2025 22:37

Well well…

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26
MarieDeGournay · 04/07/2025 23:02

It is interesting that both SP and AB were characterised as 'difficult', as if a woman being anything short of 'nice' all the time forfeits her right to fairness.

GallantKumquat · 04/07/2025 23:46

Allison, not Maya, obviously*

Boiledbeetle · 05/07/2025 00:17

Just catching up and only just seen about the email instructions from a few days ago.

I've just emailed, but I don't hold out much hope of getting a slot.

I'll be keeping everything crossed though.

DefineHappy · 05/07/2025 01:18

Just having a quiet little smile in appreciation of Charlotte’s fab name (C Elves) 😁

scaryg · 05/07/2025 20:21

Unlurking from years of following all things GC as I've just spotted this article in the DM timed at 18:49 but it mentions Dr KS as a 'third' respondent... which I think had been discussed above as unlikely.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14878169/New-gender-storm-NHS-Fife-brands-Scots-information-tsar-emotional-not-professional-bizarre-diatribe.html

Thatsrhesummeroverthen · 05/07/2025 20:36

And in a huge data breach, they mistakenly sent the diatribe to a mother who had requested a copy of her poorly son’s medical records
fucking hell

AnneKipankitoo · 05/07/2025 20:50

Incompetent ?

MelOfTheRoses · 05/07/2025 21:53

That is all quite stunningly inept, even by the standards of stunning in this case.

Conxis · 05/07/2025 22:00

Thatsrhesummeroverthen · 05/07/2025 20:36

And in a huge data breach, they mistakenly sent the diatribe to a mother who had requested a copy of her poorly son’s medical records
fucking hell

WTF have I just read! The level of incompetence is quite breathtaking

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2025 00:15

A health board has accused Scotland’s information tsar of being ‘emotional’, ‘selective’ and ‘not professional’ after he condemned its decision to withhold costs associated with a landmark ‘single sex spaces’ employment tribunal, MailOnline can reveal.

NHS Fife bosses were left fizzing with rage at David Hamilton, the Scottish Information Commissioner, after he ruled the board had acted unlawfully by rejecting requests to reveal its legal bill for the Sandie Peggie case, internal documents show.

Staff annotated a copy of Mr Hamilton’s final judgement, handed down in May, with ‘whingeing’ comments blasting the Commissioner’s decision.
And in a huge data breach, they mistakenly sent the diatribe to a mother who had requested a copy of her poorly son’s medical records.

Vicki Tocher, whose battle to get her youngster Isaac, 8, treatment from NHS Fife made headlines last week, said she was ‘shocked’ to receive the annotated document rather than her son’s records.
She said: ‘This unacceptable large data breach caused unnecessary stress...This incident shows NHS Fife’s complete disregard for patients, staff, and the Scottish Information Commissioner’s Office.’

Meanwhile the Scottish Information Commissioner, Mr Hamilton, condemned the health board for ‘wasting time’ compiling the broadside against him rather than fulfilling its legal obligations to review its responses to FOI requests.

He said: ‘I’m aware that an NHS Fife staff member’s personal commentary on the case was mistakenly disclosed into the public domain.

I am confident, however, that it is unlikely to reflect the final view of the health board itself.

‘My real concern is that valuable time has been wasted instead of expediting the additional actions I have required in that decision.’

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/07/2025 00:23

You literally couldn’t make it up 🤣

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2025 00:32

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/07/2025 00:23

You literally couldn’t make it up 🤣

Nope.

The whole board needs sacking.

I'm now no longer quite sure what for, because there's the following to pick and mix from.

The handling of Dr Upton to begin with.
The Peggy Sandie court case resulting from that
The refusal to comply with a FOI request over the costs of the case
The distress caused to a family trying to get medical records after poor treatment by Fife and getting completely the wrong documents
The data breech this causes
The unprofessional notes all over this document.

Enough4me · 06/07/2025 01:06

It's a clear article and notes that the supreme court and mainstream public opinion favours single sex spaces. The photos are great as once again it reminds anyone reading it that Upton is male. I would not want to change next to him in a changing room and can see why Sandie felt uncomfortable.
Surely Fife cannot make this any worse or ignore the legal and wider opinion much longer?

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2025 08:08

Surely Fife cannot make this any worse or ignore the legal and wider opinion much longer?

You are talking about Fife NHS here. Given their recent track record I suspect would not only struggle to organise a piss up in a brewery, but would successfully manage to burn the brewery down, have a massive brawl due to lack of beer and cause an environmental incident due to split beer. All whilst saying women can't drink due to their feminity and because it might ruin their nails.

DeanElderberry · 06/07/2025 08:11

The way that photo of Upton in the brown coat is cropped is very interesting. I read the text before the images had fully loaded, then scrolled up. That meant I saw the bottom first - long before the head was reached, it is so obviously the torso of a man.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 06/07/2025 09:12

He's also wearing the flattest shoes possible without being bare foot and still towers over his wife, who is wearing low heels.

CriticalCondition · 06/07/2025 10:24

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 06/07/2025 09:12

He's also wearing the flattest shoes possible without being bare foot and still towers over his wife, who is wearing low heels.

Yes, and in all the photos the women were wearing big coats or puffas, trousers and boots.

Upton, in his carefully cinched-in jacket, was the only one wearing tights, ballet flats and a short skirt.

Because what woman doesn't want to get their legs out in Scotland in February?

lcakethereforeIam · 06/07/2025 13:03

It's odd in the photo the way they're holding hands. Or rather, the way he isn't.

thenoisiesttermagant · 06/07/2025 13:20

Hmmmm I'm sceptical about it being 'incompetence' releasing this diatribe to the mother trying to gain accountability and answers for her son - who is a young child and who waited for an MRI for 11 months whilst in pain (based on articles about this). It could, based on the behaviour of NHS Fife so far towards Sandie Peggie, and my observations in the court case, be quite deliberate spite and bullying.

Giving her something that is essentially rubbing her nose in how they can get away with pretty much anything without anyone losing their job or any accountability and not giving her the records she has asked for, repeatedly.

They might conceivably WANT to cause her distress because she's challenged them quite publicly. It seems clear to me from the way they've behaved towards Sandie Peggie that the management are bullies.

She may also be GC, it looks as if she's reposted content from GC accounts on X prior to this (mostly in relation to the Peggie case). We've observed in the court case so fara what NHS Fife likes to do to women who don't bow down before their insane cult deifying men like Upton.

I hope she does a SAR and contacts JKR's fund. Someone really should lose their job over this - if no-one does then they CAN do whatever they want, can't they?

I mean, surely people check attachments before they press 'send' on emails? I always do.

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2025 13:25

It's not incompetence no.

Gross negligence would cover it.

thenoisiesttermagant · 06/07/2025 13:31

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2025 13:25

It's not incompetence no.

Gross negligence would cover it.

Surely people are supposed to lose their jobs for gross negligence?

If they can do this they're not even trying to do their job properly, are they? They still haven't complied with the request to release financial information about the cost of the Peggie case. They really do seem to believe they are untouchable and it's entirely at their whim whether they comply with the law.

The government needs to take action. Even if those in charge in the government believe men can change sex, this goes beyond that. If you have NHS Trusts making up their own rules and breaking the law whenever they want to, seemingly in the so far entirely correct belief they can do almost anything and get away with it, it gets into wild west territory - it's dangerous.

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2025 13:32

thenoisiesttermagant · 06/07/2025 13:31

Surely people are supposed to lose their jobs for gross negligence?

If they can do this they're not even trying to do their job properly, are they? They still haven't complied with the request to release financial information about the cost of the Peggie case. They really do seem to believe they are untouchable and it's entirely at their whim whether they comply with the law.

The government needs to take action. Even if those in charge in the government believe men can change sex, this goes beyond that. If you have NHS Trusts making up their own rules and breaking the law whenever they want to, seemingly in the so far entirely correct belief they can do almost anything and get away with it, it gets into wild west territory - it's dangerous.

That's for after the conclusion of the court case....

Chrysanthemum5 · 06/07/2025 13:46

What annoys me is that if the SC judgement had gone the other way you know these self ID policies would have been implemented immediately and with much fanfare

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