NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was doubtful whether pubilc access for remote viewing would be reinstated but recent developments (as of mid May) suggest that this might actually become available again.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25

Operational/Case Management Notes for resumed ET from 16 July

I screenshotted the following, to keep in one place some relevant information about observing the tribunal. (edit: my images are under review and will appear later today)

1: Operational Note issued by ET on 1 July NB: all applications for remote acces must be made in accordance with this note. Any prior requests will not be valid.

2: Autoreply that I received after requesting online access in accordance with the Operational Note. Text in bold seems to be relevant to this specific request.

3-5: Additional relevant information about the reasons for the limitations on observer numbers, the order of priority for allocation of observer spaces, and details of how the court will deal with disruption or no-shows from observers, extracted from the Case Management Order of 3 June (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L6yraYftK9fgwLD2gpcpqkFNa935srDC/view)

Thanks to @ikky and @nauticant for the heads up upthread about the Operational Note.

Thanks to Tribunal Tweets Substack for the comprehensive set of related links and documents that can be found here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005

Surely it will just last for a day this time - they all arrive, have to admit they were wrong, and judge goes off to deliberate on how big the settlement will be...

Most employment tribunals seem to make you wait months before the decision is out. So those thinking this will be over in July are very optimistic. We may all be here at Christmas.

mumsnet threads usually end on page 40, maybe nauticant will be able to stop at thread 40, but I wouldnt bet on it.

Nor would I. I remember being almost stunned at the speed at which thread after thread filled up during the two February hearing weeks. I had huge difficulty keeping up.

Yes, in terms if interest, but how many people could commit to being available enough to log in every day? Given that anyone who doesn’t use their slot is in danger of being bumped for the next people on the list.

in that context, 300 public observers with the ability to watch every day is probably about right. It really is restricted to those who are not working during court hours, or WFH in a role that enables you to have it on while you work, like the radio. I fall into the latter category, and if I do get to listen this time I will have to try harder not to post on here every time I think “hang on, did I hear that right?” as I have deadlines etc.

Oh and I would really love to know the balance of public observers who are for the claimant, for the respondents or neutral. It’s impossible to tell of course, but from previous hearings I get the impression that the majority are on our side, just because any names I do recognise are well known GC people and I don’t recognise any TRA names.

Also, the TRA crowd don’t seem robust enough to cope with hearing facts and words they don’t agree with. And very few seem to have the intellectual ability to listen to and understand legal proceedings, if the level of engagement here is anything to go by. I mean, how many of them have read the SC ruling and could accurately summarise it?

Were there protesters at the court last time?

I remember lots of placards with support for sandie there may have been TRAs I don't remember. I also remember that at least one of uptons support team was also a trans woman who made a bit show of using the women's toilets. Interesting to see what they do this time round

I know! I didn’t get a stitch of work done

I remember a piper led Sandie & team into court one day! And LadyAddle kindly answered my question about the tune he played, she told me it was The Rose of Allendale.
When tempests lashed our galant barque
And rent her quivering sail
One maiden's form withstood the storm
'Twas the Rose of Allendale
Beat that for style, Team Upton

I can I can 😁

Thank-you I knew it was The Rose of Allendale but no idea what they words were.
What an absolute belter of a choice 👏!

How many of them actually have had the reading comprehension to understand it? Even ones with barrister qualifications and who are running governmental departments don't seem to have the capacity.

Slight derail but way back in the SP threads of time we were trying to predict what number thread we’d get up to when the case resumed. I don’t think I got close (probably said millions) but who is the wisest Mumsnetter in predicting SP threads? And do they win something? (First row seat accessing the hearing maybe?)

Editing as I meant to quote the point about men in women's loos first...

There will be so many court visitors watching now all men officially know they have to use the men's loos. Perhaps 'special' facilities will quickly be provided for stunning and brave men (portaloo somewhere around the back with a urinal? 😂)

I know The Rose of Allendale as a song from Mary Black singing it yonks ago.
A grand song - apparently it's originally English - neither Irish, as it sounds when MB sing it, nor Scottish, as it sounds when played on the bagpipes!
An ecumenical song😁

Yes, Allendale is in northern England, Northumberland to be specific.

The song is 'The Rose of Allandale' and was composed by Charles Jefferys (lyrics) and Sidney Nelson (music) in the 1830s, being published in Blake's Young Flutist's Magazine in 1833.

Apparently Nelson just chose the place name at random.

Yes, Allendale is in northern England, Northumberland to be specific.

Where the also play bagpipes but of a different kind to Scotland.

I was just about going to say that, Northumberland pipes 😊

They do indeed - the tradition is nurtured by the likes of the wonderful Kathryn Tickell
Home – Kathryn Tickell

Alistair Anderson’s another
https://alistairanderson.com/#:~:text=Alistair%20Anderson%20is%20internationally%20recognized,fRoots

Hey guys found the thread but sorry I can't find when this resumes - I only remembered it would reconvene in July!

I hope it's in the next two weeks before the kids break up from school.....

AFAIR it resumes on 16th July.

I was off and I still found it hard to keep up. Fast moving doesn't even really cover it!