NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

In less positive news, it is clear that some people still haven't got the memo. The OP in this thread is a nurse who has been told her behaviour is unacceptable. The unacceptable behaviour in question is objecting to being referred to as a "cis woman".

Pulled up at work for ‘trans views’ | Mumsnet

I had exactly the same thought about the headline as you!

It will take time but the drip drip of sports protecting women and girls categories will send a message.

The drip drip of ETs upholding the EA2010 as written etc. will slowly get us back to the right place.

There are now conversations in the media that wouldn’t have happened a month ago.

I would 100% object to being cissed. I think it's quite possible to bounce that straight back in a genderwang boomerang with something like "it is inappropriate for you to assume I am cis gender or to discuss my gender in any way, except if it has specific bearing on my work duties"

@BezMills excellent

Genius! While I’m not keen on going along with this stuff, sometimes the only way is to fight fire with fire! I’d love to see their their face as they perform the mental gymnastics and realise the only option is to agree (or denounce their GI stance) 🤣

I have nothing useful to add. Just wanted to say genderwang boomerang. 😂
Thank you for that.

Cricket follows the FA's lead.

ECB says transgender women cannot compete in women's cricket with immediate effect - BBC Sport

and another one gone…

Every day there seems to be something in the news. This is an excellent driver of the news cycle, which leaves the "no debate" losers with less and less to say (except of the Operation #LetThemSpeak variety, which generally seem to make TRAs look incoherent and/or entitled).

Of interest:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5327147-house-of-lords-short-debate-1st-may-nhs-single-sex-spaces-for-staff

Morning all! Over on the NHS audit thread, some of our auditors are doing a deep dive into the source of “Annex B” which is the part of the NHS-wide “single sex accommodation” policy that allows for trans patients to use whatever accommodation they wish. One of our auditors is looking for some help:

GreenAllOver · Yesterday 18:18
I’ve been doing some digging on Annex B (which originally was Annex E). I’ve got as far back as 2009 (attached - its a CNO letter including Annex E, which in practice created a self ID exemption to the mixed sex accommodation rules), and have hit a bit of a brick wall on anything earlier. The guidance definitely predates Andrew Lansley, who was SofS for Health 6 May 2010 to 4 Sept 2012.
Could anyone with the right sort of expertise in digging out information from archived websites help? Logins for HSJ, Nursing Times and other related publications would also help, given what I’ve found on google but not been able to read.
** has very kindly set up a jotform, so it’s a question of digging out the relevant documents and adding them, and then using them to analyse what we need next.
At the moment, the things I’m struggling to find are
all the versions of the Mixed Sex Accommodation statistical return guidance and FAQs, dating back to the start of the collection in January 2004 (as referenced in the CNO bulletin for that month).
Any earlier data collections on the mixed sex accommodation (earlier ones may say ‘wards’), as that should lead us to the data definitions.
A copy of “Delivering same-sex accommodation – the story so far” published in Dec 2009.
A copy of the Nov 2008 NHS Institute for Innovation and Improvement guidance on implementing Chief Nurse report May 2007 on eliminating mixed sex accommodation
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7cd02ced915d6b29fa8d19/CNO_note_dh_098893.pdf

If you can lend a hand, come over and give us a shout:
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5322494-nhs-policy-audit-working-party-thread-2

And an update (because @GreenAllOver is amazingly speedy) on what has been found on Annex B. Still gaps to fill, if there’s anyone on here with relevant connections or info:

GreenAllOver · Today 09:50

If anyone is interested, this is the story so far (still got lots of gaps to fill) on mixed sex accommodation in the NHS.
NHS accommodation has been mixed sex since (at least) May 2009.
Blair came to power in 1997 promising to eliminate mixed sex wards. By January 2004 the target to eliminate mixed sex accommodation (not wards) in 95% of trusts had been met. The Government wanted 100% compliance, and set up annual monitoring. All seemed to be going well.
In May 2007 the Chief Nurse published a report on privacy and dignity, which didn’t mention single sex accommodation. In November 2008, the NHS Institute for Innovation and Improvement published guidance on implementing this report, focusing on mixed sex accommodation. This could be where the guidance changed from biological sex to self identified gender (I’ve not yet found a copy). The month before DH had published a guide to trans healthcare written by a Christine Buns (TW), which told the NHS to go ‘beyond the law’, including guidance on including trans people in wards that suit their gender.
In January 2009, the then Secretary of State (Alan Johnson) announced a new push on eliminating mixed sex accommodation, possibly with the upcoming election in mind. In May of that year, guidance was published which gave trans patients to right to choose the accommodation that matched their gender identity. The data collected would not classify this as a ‘breach’, in the same way as a mixed sex ICU ward would not be a breach. At this point (if not before) NHS accommodation became mixed sex again. But nobody knew, because all the data returns showed the opposite.

And this is why sex MUST be recorded now at this point if they are still claiming that they have single sex accomodation.

Failure to provide single sex accomodation will lead to self exclusion at this point and harms done to women too unfortunately.

So the NHS needs to get to grips with this.

Incredible research, all you amazing auditors. I'm deeply shocked to see just how far this all dates back. 2008. 2008! That's barely in this century. These parasitic fuckers have been creeping their way through everything for nearly 20 years. Actually, I'm not just shocked, I'm seething.

@TwoLoonsAndASprout in the recent House of Lords debate, Baroness Nicholson hinted at a turning point in 2008, and a specific source:
https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2025-05-01/debates/75F1B529-7B0E-483A-AC7F-8FF909FEFE8B/NHSSingle-SexSpacesForStaff is the debate.

BNoW said: "In fact, this goes right back to the 1990s, when all Governments were committed—both sides—to single-sex spaces for patients and nurses throughout our hospital systems. That was building absolutely brilliantly until 2008, when very surprisingly something came out from inside the NHS saying, “Oh dear, we are going to be asked to have single-sex spaces and make women nurses-only protections and we are not going to do that. What are we doing to do?” I happened to see that email. That was when this started to be diverted in 2008.

"In 2014, the health Act that offered single-sex recognition throughout the NHS was already being undermined by Annex B—which, after all, is only a comment at the end of the annual nursing statement, yet it was given dominance over an Act of Parliament. I can give the detail of that, obviously. My first request is that that particular aspect should be looked at, because an Act of Parliament should surely be dominant, not an additional and internal measure within the NHS—as I would say of any other government department that was allowed to divert and send it into a different channel."

[apologies in advance for my lousy linking skills! I need to re-learn how to do it on MN, but am struggling with multiple deadlines!]

JK Rowling says she will FUND any woman's case if they decide to sue the police over being strip-searched by a male officer | Daily Mail Online

From that article:

We will need time to consider the full implications of the court's decision (NPCC)

No, you don't. It isn't difficult. You should have immediately made it clear that trans women may not conduct strip searches of women. That is the implication. Any woman now strip searched by a trans woman has a case against the police (and could possibly bring a private prosecution against the trans individual for sexual assault). The only reason they need time is to try and find a way around the judgement.

We are not announcing any changes to our practices and policies until the full ruling is released and assessed. (Surrey and Sussex Police)

The full ruling was released the day before you put this on your intranet, so that is a red herring. You don't need time to assess. Any trans officer conducting a strip search of a woman is potentially committing a criminal offence.

Astonishing. And scary.

If you can't trust the police not to break the law (yes, I know, I know!), exactly who can you trust?

I think it's a disgusting response from them.

But also: thank fuck for JKR!

(and could possibly bring a private prosecution against the trans individual for sexual assault).

I assume that this will also apply to Beth Upton if he insists he's a lady and wants to examine a woman.

There just seems to be a massive but I don't wanna! from so many organisations. And drag their feet along the ground and say Go on then, make me, I bet you can't!

They're like toddlers arguing about bed time, aren't they.

Yes, if Upton examines a woman who has specifically requested a female doctor he may be committing an offence.