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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

1000 replies

nauticant · 20/04/2025 08:15

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

OP posts:
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33
Cismyfatarse · 05/05/2025 18:18

Which bit of the Victoria hospital is Bethself currently residing in? Am there next week and would like to avoid. But might have time for reconnaissance!

Lark1ane · 05/05/2025 19:24

I'd avoid the newly opened Burke and Hare department, Cismyfatarse.

Cismyfatarse · 05/05/2025 19:39

Am getting my dodgy foot looked at. Am I in the safe zone or should I take reinforcements?

JanesLittleGirl · 05/05/2025 22:45

Dr Upton was last reported as working in Anesthetics. Is there any probability that you will need an Anaesthetist?

SinnerBoy · 05/05/2025 23:07

I've been thinking (I know, I know!) that any senior Police officer who has signed any document, stating that trans Police should be allowed to search women / that female Police should search them is surely the originator of a criminal conspiracy?

Hoardasurass · 05/05/2025 23:45

SinnerBoy · 05/05/2025 23:07

I've been thinking (I know, I know!) that any senior Police officer who has signed any document, stating that trans Police should be allowed to search women / that female Police should search them is surely the originator of a criminal conspiracy?

I'd argue that they were an accomplice and/or facilitating

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 06/05/2025 09:44

That comment he made! And nothing done even after colleagues reported it. We really do need to address this hierarchy of PCs. It seems that pretty much every PC is elevated above women.

Arran2024 · 06/05/2025 12:07

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 06/05/2025 12:03

Sturgeon says trans life could become unliveable. SIGH.😡

BBC News - Trans life could become 'unliveable' - Sturgeon
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgn2gyx9vdo

At least she has no power to push anything through these days.

Peregrina · 06/05/2025 12:10

What an idiotic stance to take. The ones who suffer will be the perverts, rapists and voyeurs who were taking what was never theirs by right.

Peregrina · 06/05/2025 12:14

But back to Sandi Peggie - the judge was meeting with the Naomi Cunningham and the other side's legal reps. Do we know when that decision is likely to be made, and will it be made public? The tribunal is due to reconvene in July.

Needspaceforlego · 06/05/2025 12:19

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 06/05/2025 12:03

Sturgeon says trans life could become unliveable. SIGH.😡

BBC News - Trans life could become 'unliveable' - Sturgeon
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgn2gyx9vdo

Aww diddums!

SternJoyousBee · 06/05/2025 12:29

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 06/05/2025 12:03

Sturgeon says trans life could become unliveable. SIGH.😡

BBC News - Trans life could become 'unliveable' - Sturgeon
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgn2gyx9vdo

But how so? Considering there was no clash between women’s rights and trans rights? 🤔

lcakethereforeIam · 06/05/2025 13:21

If only Sturgeon had ever been in a position to make sensible accommodation for people who claim to be trans. As I've said in a few other posts, trans people have been very poorly served by their allies. Allies who couldn't have been more successful in turning public opinion against them if they'd tried.

thenoisiesttermagant · 06/05/2025 13:24

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 06/05/2025 12:03

Sturgeon says trans life could become unliveable. SIGH.😡

BBC News - Trans life could become 'unliveable' - Sturgeon
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgn2gyx9vdo

Well, even if this were true - which it's not - if it's a choice between making life 'unliveable' for a tiny, tiny minority and 51% of the population, what makes sense?

Ridiculous hyperbole anyway. The only trans people this makes life 'unlivable' for are those who think women's consent doesn't matter and we all know who they are.

Plenty of transpeople, including transwomen, - all the decent ones who give a tiny shit about anyone else - are happy to use facilities associated with their sex or unisex options, of which there are many.

FlowchartRequired · 06/05/2025 13:27
Star Trek Spock GIF by Studios 2016

There must be a gif for that... indeed there is.

GCEpileptic · 06/05/2025 13:35

prh47bridge · 05/05/2025 18:16

Yes, if Upton examines a woman who has specifically requested a female doctor he may be committing an offence.

you've Mentioned this before @prh47bridge and Im really grateful for your posts on this. I have requested female staff where available, it’s on my ACP also noted with the (sorry I don’t know what’s it called) brief list of conditions/DNR/summary thing NHS staff see as an overview first.

the regular staff that I see most and repeatedly are a group of females in three specialist clinics and two female consultants and one male consultant who I trust. So fine.

BUT my main problem atm is ironically A and E due to seizure injuries (currently one eye swollen shut from a big one last week and nice concussion - so apologise for even worse typing!) Obviously I understand paramedics and resus staff etc may be male, they can literally save your life and I’m not alert so it doesn’t cause problems. But when I’m conscious enough eg in cubicles I request females for exams if possible (if no choice usually have female chaperones). If DH is with me it’s fine, and if I’m not alert he will make the request for me. (could do whole other thread about that and how he’s taken seriously immediately!)

if I found out Upton had been “caring” for me I would def be pursuing this Avenue of assault for sure. (Not happened to me as never been in his area, but I wonder if any women have been affected by this as I would be so upset to learn I’d been basically been used to fuflfil his desires without my knowledge or informed consent, it so does feek like assault situation) idk how and if any of Uptons female patients who don’t know about this should be made aware but i feel they should know - bet the farm the trust would never do that off their own accord.

could or would anything be done about this?
It’s staying in my mind so much atm but I don’t know if I’m projecting for or it’s seizures and the aftermath is just so awful, I feel I lose all my dignity and independence and it feels humiliating embarrassing and just really fucking upsetting anyway no matter how professional or lovely the staff are. to think a man like Upton would have had his hands on me would be horrific. But maybe other women “treated” by him would be fine with it? but then any religious women probably wouldn’t…

idk if I’m struggling because last week was bad for me but the thought of those women not knowing keeps going round in my head. Do posters think they’d know from all the news coverage? A lot of people end up in an and e in none local areas, and he’s been in different departments too, sorry can’t remember which.

I think thr trust should make ALL his patients aware of what’s happening and I think he should be struck off immediately tbh. I can’t understand how he can be allowed to work after judges and the public has heard what he said himself off his own back.
sorry if this has already been discussed but the thought of his former patients not knowing is awful and they deserve to be made aware actively.

.

GCEpileptic · 06/05/2025 13:40

Also, I’m sorry but i have to say it and be sweary- what THE FUCK is going on with Sturgeon? Apart from trying to save her skin for previous actions in government obvs - but wtf can’t she read the room? WHY is she still fucking going on and fucking on? (Sorry for language she is really seriously pissinf me off) she keeps pandering to the few so persistently, why?!?

Chersfrozenface · 06/05/2025 13:45

GCEpileptic · 06/05/2025 13:40

Also, I’m sorry but i have to say it and be sweary- what THE FUCK is going on with Sturgeon? Apart from trying to save her skin for previous actions in government obvs - but wtf can’t she read the room? WHY is she still fucking going on and fucking on? (Sorry for language she is really seriously pissinf me off) she keeps pandering to the few so persistently, why?!?

Convinced she's On The Right Side Of History (TM) and eventually everyone will see the light and agree with her?

She's Nicola Sturgeon and could never possibly be wrong?

Sorry, that's all I've got.

prh47bridge · 06/05/2025 14:07

could or would anything be done about this?

Whether anything could be done depends on the circumstances. If you need urgent care and there are no female doctors available, a male doctor can treat you regardless of how they identify. Assuming that doesn't apply, whether action could be taken depends on the facts. If a male doctor or nurse takes your pulse or temperature, for example, that may technically be assault but it is unlikely that anything could be done about it. However, if a male doctor or nurse carries out an intimate examination, that is definitely common assault and may be sexual assault.

Given that the police appear to be captured (note their comments in one of my earlier posts showing that at least some forces are dragging their feet over banning trans women from conducting strip searches of women), you may struggle to get the authorities to act. The BMA is also clearly captured. Not sure about the GMC. However, if the authorities weren't willing to do anything, you could bring a private prosecution against the individual. You may also have a claim against the hospital trust if their policies allow this to happen.

Enough4me · 06/05/2025 14:11

Unlivable would be like the removal of oxygen. All they are being reminded of is the fact humans are animals with female and male anatomy and corresponding facilities.
The more people move away from reality the more extreme the b*llshit becomes.

prh47bridge · 06/05/2025 14:12

Chersfrozenface · 06/05/2025 13:45

Convinced she's On The Right Side Of History (TM) and eventually everyone will see the light and agree with her?

She's Nicola Sturgeon and could never possibly be wrong?

Sorry, that's all I've got.

She is in the grip of an FIB (Fashionable Irrational Belief). Intelligent people are particularly prone to these as they can rationalise the belief to themselves. As with others in the grip of an FIB, she uses her belief to signal that she belongs to the tribe. She dare not let go of that belief. If she did, she would no longer be part of the tribe.

NotMyRealAccount · 06/05/2025 16:22

Sturgeon says trans life could become unliveable.

I'm sure there's a profound quote from Germaine Greer for this. Let's see. How does it go again? Oh, yes. "I don't care."

Conxis · 06/05/2025 16:25

Peregrina · 06/05/2025 12:14

But back to Sandi Peggie - the judge was meeting with the Naomi Cunningham and the other side's legal reps. Do we know when that decision is likely to be made, and will it be made public? The tribunal is due to reconvene in July.

IIRC tribunal tweets were expecting to hear on their request to continue tweeting mid to late May

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