NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

Ah yes, that mysterious select group of people who know that they are the opposite sex than they are, but the rest of us don't have a clue.
Apparently they don't need to check their chromosomes as they just know but we should check ours, as otherwise how would we know?
They equally want to label us CIS, so they know for us too.
They are either genuinely aware of something the rest of us plus sciencecannot see, or it's just a cult based on belief 🤔

Good on Tribunal Tweets making the two corrections. Not only does it show they are acting in good faith but how Fife are clinging on to everything.

TT presumably cant publish the NHS FIFE report - but they have shown what they thought of it. 😁

Yes, it is very disappointing that a centre designed for healthcare didn't put health first.

I'm assuming at some point someone will be seriously injured or die as a result of having a seizure in a single lockable room which might reasonably have been prevented with a safer toilet design and there'll be a court case and the organisation who decided to sacrifice safety for appeasing activists unthinkingly will face at least financial consequences and maybe then sanity will return. It seems to be the case that harm has to happen for anything to change even when it's obvious something is potentially very harmful.

Is there any news yet about Dr Upton's phone?

I’m so glad about the open justice decision. The minor typos by TT suggest a lot of straw clutching by the employer!

Hopefully we will learn the results of the other applications as well!

Keep shooting at your foot NHS Fife - it’s all going well for you so far!

Yes, I anticipate a campaign by DU’s supporters to interrupt proceedings to try to get things closed down. Come on court, sort out the tech and mute the observers!

As far as I'm aware, on the system, it's the mic not being muted that brings the noisy person onto the panel of participants, meaning we could see the hair drying individual. Having everyone muted from the start should stop them even appearing.

Hopefully the tech will be upgraded as the court knows this case has attracted a huge amount of attention, even from beyond the UK.
I feel a bit sorry for judge Kemp. It’s just an employment tribunal but the eyes of the world are watching!

It may be additional pressure but, provided the judge acts in accordance with the evidence and law, there should be no concerns for them?

And it’s just got a whole lot easier for the panel. Previously it was going to be down to the skill of NC’s arguments regarding whether DU had harassed SP just by being in the CR. Post 16th July thats now confirmed and they need only give that minimal attention. Instead they will now put more focus on the victimisation and other things that flow from that event. I must say that unless DU is 100% delusional, their confidence must have evaporated and they know they are looking at 1 claim definitely being found against them and therefore defo a corresponding financial penalty. If they’ve been ordered to hand over the phone then it must be looking nerve wracking about the 2nd claim…. And the potential “career ending” PCC if it’s found that DU concocted the professional allegations against SP out of spite….

I do chuckle remembering when JR gloatingly said to NC “you don’t want a continuation” meaning a break would be bad for SP’s case so that NC should give up chasing the disclosures…

JR must be absolutely kicking herself that she didn’t get her clients to do full disclosure first time and to advise DU to keep it brief on the stand. His actions on both delayed this hearing and that delay has brought nothing but trouble for their own side! I wonder if DU is getting grief from the trans side because his actions have done massive PR damage? I think we should give him a feminist award of some sort?

It seemed like they might have used software that when they tried to mute all/stop showing all screens actually unmuted people and showed people that were already muted/invisible. I.e. it toggled it instead.

Surely the easiest thing is for them to stream it on YouTube like the post office inquiry. Also like the SC hearing and judgement. It shouldn’t take much for the IT dept to contact colleagues in other departments to borrow the kit to do this.

Does anyone know if it’s unusual for just one element of a hearing outcome to be made public?

I was expecting a formal judgement on all of the issues that were heard and not just the decisions about Tribunal Tweets and public access. The Tribunal Tweets Substack has an extract from a judgement but not the full document.

I have always understood ET judgements are not routinely made public but are often shared whereas EAT judgements are published. Is it due to it being in Scotland?

“I do chuckle remembering when JR gloatingly said to NC “you don’t want a continuation” meaning a break would be bad for SP’s case so that NC should give up chasing the disclosures…
JR must be absolutely kicking herself that she didn’t get her clients to do full disclosure first time and to advise DU to keep it brief on the stand. His actions on both delayed this hearing and that delay has brought nothing but trouble for their own side!”

@KnottyAuty absolutely perfect 😂😂😂😂

I am hoping that NC not only benefits from the SC ruling but also additional disclosures

I suspect the unusual bit is for any part of the judgement to be made public at this stage. However given the amount of public interest in continued access to the hearing they probably felt obliged to say look you dont all have to try and turn up in person. I doubt they want 600 people to try and get into the courtroom.

Certainly no lack of space at all. I think the lobby is in planning, architectural services, the NHS management. It will take years to remove all the tendrils of the trans knotweed.

The case was clear cut from the start as Dr Upton didn't (still might not) have a grc as such he's still legally male and we knew from the haldane ruling in the fpfws appeal vs the gender representation Bill (the judgement that was partially appealed to the sc) that a male who has the PC of gender reassignment but does not have a grc is still a a man and has no right to enter female single sex spaces nor the expectation of the right.
Basically the sc ruling doesn't change the case or make it any easier to win as self id was never legal, which I suspect is why nhs fife haven't backed down they always knew that they acted illegally and haven't got a leg to stand on, hence all the lies, obfuscations, bullying and continuous attempts to have the hearing in secret.

Interesting you thought that the DU harassment part was easy to prove. I mean that is what I would have hoped but as we went through the hearing and DU claimed to literally be a woman I started to wonder if it was me that had lost a grip on what the average person might believe?! Anyway I am glad it is crystal clear now... unless you listen to the Good Law Project who think that it is not clear at all... sigh

I wouldn't bother listening to the Good Law Project. They claim to have won 45% of their cases, with the rest being either mixed outcomes or losses. However, their "wins" include a case that was actually brought and won by someone else before GLP existed. Half of their "wins" did not get as far as a judgement. Indeed, in some of many of them GLP didn't even issue a claim. Another "win" was a case where they spent nearly £400k of other people's money before losing in the High Court and being ordered to pay 80% of the government's costs - if you end up writing the cheque, you lost. They also exclude from their figures a number of cases on the basis that they can't yet say what the outcome is, but they clearly lost. Their actual win rate is less than 20%, with the rest being losses on any sensible measure.

The GLP are occasionally right, but so is a broken clock.

The delay was Upton's fault because he over-egged things on the stand and because he didn't hand his mobile phone over earlier, is that right?
I struggled to keep up with it, but remember his gloating face as he walked outside the court in a group. It was interesting as he looked like another man in the group, and the women all looked like women.
I wonder why they don't see and question reality?

@KnottyAuty its clear cut law upton is/was biologically and legally male at the time, self id has never been law in the UK! NHS Fife acted illegally by allowing him entrance to the female changing facilities, his behaviour is a partially a separate matter except for the (as yet to be proven) collaboration with/of nhs fife (the suspension, investigation and hearing before the lawsuit had finished being heard and their lawyer spelling out the guiltt verdict in crt before the hearing was tabled etc) and is almost a separate action hence he is a named respondent personally rather than a witness/victim/hypothetical legal non entity created for the case.
Add to all of that I know that NHS Fife was aware of the haldane ruling as I personally informed NHS Fife of the haldane ruling (I have the misfortune of living in fife) and pointed out the illegality of their trans policy and was ignored and was written off as a transphobe and cranck because I complained about their refusal to accept my reasonable request for a biologically female gynecologist rather than a female gender identifying gynecologist.
I've been arguing and fighting with them over gender identity theory since a psychiatrist suggested that mine and my DS's asd could be cured by transitioning and everything would be fine (guess what I had watchful waiting as a teen) and I went asd nuclear on their asses.
Funnily enough I've got a request for a meeting with PALS come through today that I need to respond to 🤔

NHS Fife failed to comply with a previous disclosure order which would have indicated the requirement of Dr Upton to disclose his phone and the addition of Dr Searly (if memory serves me correctly) as a 3rd respondent hence the late application tosdd a 3rd respondent and the disclosure of Dr Uptons hand the recent hearing

@Hoardasurass
I've been arguing and fighting with them over gender identity theory since a psychiatrist suggested that mine and my DS's asd could be cured by transitioning and everything would be fine

I'm speechless!

Fife sounds more and more like a dystopian world . Good for you for going nuclear on them.

I've been arguing and fighting with them over gender identity theory since a psychiatrist suggested that mine and my DS's asd could be cured by transitioning and everything would be fine (guess what I had watchful waiting as a teen) and I went asd nuclear on their asses.

I’m so sorry you have been so badly treated @Hoardasurass 💕
These people need locking up, or at the very least to be kept away from any involvement in any sort of health care ever again.