NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

Yes, and it's mainly the rich / those in power who get away with breaking the law and the truly most vulnerable and marginalised - poor people, women with trauma, people with disabilities, children (who don't have rich parents) - who suffer the consequences and experience harm.

It's so depressing. Nature is red in tooth and claw and humans, despite claiming biology is nebulous, behave like animals, punching down on the weakest. That's what all of this is, at base.

The class issue in the Peggie / Fife / Upton case isn't discussed enough IMO.

And in general: it’s all very well when you work in a nice shiny office in ScotGov or the City, and there’s a known trans person who seems harmless and you’re surrounded by your colleagues who you know would help in the event of an emergency.

it’s a different matter when you work late nights or remotely, in a warehouse, a factory, on a job site where the workforce is transient, anonymous, faceless… or you’re perhaps only one of a few female workers, with a disinterested or hostile management. Or you can’t speak up due to frailty or disability, or because you’re just still a child… The naïveté and sheer gall of professional women who scoff at other women and their concerns - they either can’t imagine a scenario where a bad faith actor would present a real danger or they know fine well and they just don’t give a damn. And yes I’m looking at you, Sturgeon, and Maggie Chapman, and Kate Searle and all the rest of you.

That would be good but I think this is the main union for junior doctors so that may be difficult.

A problem is that the BMA, after decades of ineptitude and/or treachery, has become quite good at collective bargaining.
The policy of opposing the SC decision is to be debated at the annual representative meeting of all branches of the BMA and will hopefully be rejected, as group representatives other than the "junior" (now "Resident") doctors are less likely to be so silly.

(The BMA criticism of the Cass report was accepted by the BMA by a procedure which bypassed the annual representative meeting.)

No doubt I am not alone in feeling a new, extra layer of scepticism over any doctor necessarily being deserving of their patients having faith in their judgement.

To change the subject slightly: what do people think of this? (serious Q). A poisoned chalice? Or a worthwhile challenge…

I‘ve just seen an advert on Appointed for Scotland for Board Members for NHS Fife, including a Non-Exec Whistleblowing Champion…

NH Fife Board

They also want one member with expertise in finance, audit and risk. Could that be because a lot of money has been wasted by wrongly assessing the risk of defending a certain legal case?

The successful candidate will receive a salary of £14,352 per year for a one-day-per-week commitment. Any additional time committment (sic) will be remunerated appropriately.

Interesting to know how much board members get paid - 16 of them, although I guess the Chairman may get more and for many it may be part of their job. 6 none executive directors though. Looks like poisoned chalice to me.

Gosh, this is a rapid and high pair of increases:

The remuneration for these two roles is based on the requirements for one day (8 hours) per week at £276 per day. The rate is £14,352 per annum, which is non-pensionable. This remuneration will rise to £312 per day in April 2026 and £342 per day in April 2027. Reasonable expenses incurred will be reimbursed.

it sounds like it’s a scale rate that’s increasing, not expected performance-based, but I may be wrong.

I suppose what I am getting at is: should we be trying to push for more GC candidates to apply for such roles? The Scottish Police Federation is also looking for people. These Boards are many and various in the public sector.

I see a lot of these types of claiming "arguments" unfortunately. And that the Supreme Court is scientifically illiterate. Usually goes as follows:

1. There exist "intersex" individuals i.e. someone with XY with androgen sensitivity may have female genitals and develop breasts.

2. The existence of these people mean that sex is not binary

3. Therefore "sex" is a "social construct nothing more".

Ignoring the fact that the biological knowledge is often rather selective (XY with DSD do not have ovaries, XX cannot grow penises). But even if it wasn't the argument is invalid.

Look at the concept of being alive or dead. As I understand it, once you get further into biology you understand there are individuals who could be argued to be in some ways alive and some ways dead, like so called "brain dead". Some societies, religions and individuals will consider some people alive in certain circumstances, others will not.

But that doesn't mean that being alive or dead is not binary (whatever that word means) and that it is just a social construct. It also does not mean that someone who is alive can claim to be dead or vice versa! Or there shouldn't be laws differentiating the rights of people who are alive or not.

Stonewall and its ilk gained their stranglehold on public life by inserting themselves in these roles. Time to take them back. Same goes for councils.

I personally think it's worthwhile - as PP have said obtaining roles like this (then breaking the Nolan principles, which obviously no mumsnetter would do) is how gender woo overtook safeguarding and common sense.

Are you local? Could you do it? References available from Mumsnet about critical thinking ability and open mindedness rather than unthinking adherence to Orwellian right- think!

TBH if you are interested and meet the criteria I would certainly consider applying as I think these organisations need a better balance. You'd need the stomach for a few battles.....

I have been looking at such a role for a while … and am local enough to travel but not be too close to it. And I probably even have a reasonably suitable CV. I’m just not sure I’m ready for the fray… in real life. If we had a network of like minded women who could support each other - because I think it will be challenging….

Maybe there needs to be a SEEN in governance? It's madness that you're concerned about taking on a whistleblower role because of the toxicity of the culture around gender. But you're right, and NHS Fife have shown themselves to be pretty awful. Mind you, if they're not really serious and this is a 'cover it all up, whilst carrying on as usual' post then you'd probably figure that out at interview?

There's a SEEN in healthcare. Not sure if you can join in this role?

Presumably if it was as awful as your worst fears, you could just quit?

I don't really know how these things work but could you contact For Women Scotland. They are clearly well connected and may know how to support gender critical board members in organisations or put them in touch with each other.

Yes, I was wondering about reaching out to organisations like FWS. It would surely be a strategy, to start trying to get suitable candidates into these kinds of roles. I have personal (and a professional potential conflict of interest) reasons why it might be difficult right now, and NHS Fife might be too much of a baptism of fire, but it’s definitely something to think about and be aware of for the longer term.

We should establish a professional networking group for those of us seriously interested to get strategising and formulate a plan …

Yes, and the SEEN networks are a bit different as they're deliberately advocating for sex realist employees not being discriminated against.

This sounds more like just a support network for those in governance positions who actually want to uphold the Nolan principles and act with integrity in these roles and uphold the law rather than 'getting ahead of' it (aka breaking it)?

And probably unions, too.

FA says transgender women cannot compete in women's football from June - BBC Sport

Excellent news!

So pleased. My granddaughter is a keen footballer.

Brilliant news. I know it’s going to take a long time but the scales are definitely becoming more balanced.

Adding just seen the BBC headline is “FA bars transgender women from women's football”

Less than a month ago it would have been more like “FA bars transgender women from football” implying TW were barred from all football.