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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

1000 replies

nauticant · 20/04/2025 08:15

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
borntobequiet · 20/04/2025 22:44

Excellent work, thank you all so much for this.

nebulousMoose · 20/04/2025 22:51

Thank you for all the work that's gone into this - such a horrifyingly stark depiction of the reality of the non-single sex hospital spaces all over London.

needmoresheep · 20/04/2025 23:04

£200,000 plus NHS Fife had allegedly spent on this so far. £200,000 of tax payers money that could have been used on something patient focused.

Carol Potter and the NHS Fife mean girls have wasted £200,000 of tax payers funds on this so far. And the NHS wants more money!

Wes Streeting needs to get a grip on all of this wasted money. The NHS HR depts need a root and branch sort out.

And yes Darlington you are next in line.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 20/04/2025 23:21

CriticalCondition · 20/04/2025 20:17

That's a great piece about it being a cult from Milli Hill. And I hadn't come across the simulated periods thing before.Confused Ugh, something else to add to the litany of grimness.

From the same article, I'd like to add this to the litany as well

Most worrying of all, they told their young readers that the highly complex and risky surgery performed to make a penis into a vagina is a '“really cool medical procedure”.

I do not understand how adults can be so irresponsible

Enough4me · 21/04/2025 00:22

When Sandie wins & Fife have to pay her compensation for depriving her of single sex facilities (by enabling a man to use them) will anything happen to Upton?
He'll be judged as delusional so unable to practice?

Needspaceforlego · 21/04/2025 00:42

Enough4me · 21/04/2025 00:22

When Sandie wins & Fife have to pay her compensation for depriving her of single sex facilities (by enabling a man to use them) will anything happen to Upton?
He'll be judged as delusional so unable to practice?

The GMC will need to review the complaints made against him.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 21/04/2025 00:47

Needspaceforlego · 21/04/2025 00:42

The GMC will need to review the complaints made against him.

I think his most serious misconduct was making allegations of professional misconduct against the claimant which were, to say the very least, exaggerated for personal gain. I hope someone has registered that particular complaint.

Needspaceforlego · 21/04/2025 01:01

There's what he said about Sandie Peggie.

The biological sex nebulous dog whistle comment - does he really think that or is he delusional?

And the admission he'd treat women who'd requested same sex carers.

CandyLeBonBon · 21/04/2025 01:03

Fantastic summary from everyone so far, thankyou. I’m staggered this is where we are. It’s like something out of black mirror!

WearyAuldWumman · 21/04/2025 01:07

CandyLeBonBon · 21/04/2025 01:03

Fantastic summary from everyone so far, thankyou. I’m staggered this is where we are. It’s like something out of black mirror!

Agreed. As a resident of Fife, I'm particularly invested in this case.

SternJoyousBee · 21/04/2025 01:15

PersonIrresponsible · 20/04/2025 12:23

I can see Fife offering no contest now. There's really nowhere to go as much as I'd like the shitshow to carry on, it doesn't behove anyone to keep it going.

A formal apology and an undisclosed amount of comp will be announced soon I'm sure.

Can the tribunal still producing a ruling under these circumstances? NHS Fife should not be allowed to get away without some form if ruling or censure against them. They would probably try and wriggle out and make the offer without accepting any liability

SternJoyousBee · 21/04/2025 01:28

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 20/04/2025 18:42

I thought it was interesting that Naomi C specifically characterised the behaviour as live action role play.

I think she is an excellent judge of character…. She had him on coercive control as well

SternJoyousBee · 21/04/2025 01:32

CamillaMacauley · 20/04/2025 19:22

I can believe that Upton isn’t lying and is so delusional that he believes he’s a woman. But if I was involved in any decision over the case then his delusion would make me treat all of his assertions and evidence with a great deal of doubt.

I don’t for a second think he believes that he is actually a women. I don’t think he suffers from gender dysphoria or body dysmorphia. I think he is a controlling narcissist with a fetish. But I am biased 🤷‍♀️

SternJoyousBee · 21/04/2025 01:40

needmoresheep · 20/04/2025 23:04

£200,000 plus NHS Fife had allegedly spent on this so far. £200,000 of tax payers money that could have been used on something patient focused.

Carol Potter and the NHS Fife mean girls have wasted £200,000 of tax payers funds on this so far. And the NHS wants more money!

Wes Streeting needs to get a grip on all of this wasted money. The NHS HR depts need a root and branch sort out.

And yes Darlington you are next in line.

Nothing for Wes Streeting to do in regards to NHS Fife as health come under Scottish Government as they are up to to their eyes in this mess. Darlington is of course another matter.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 21/04/2025 01:59

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 20/04/2025 22:13

Just to keep everyone up to date:

The Telegraph has just published an article on the NHS single sex spaces audit started by @KnottyAuty - this time on our investigation of the London trusts:

www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/84716a16d54d73c7

(including a comment from Helen Joyce!)

Direct link and archive link coming up in a min.

I saw this on X & immediately thought it was part of the work on here. Well
done. I think the dismantling of the widespread capture by a thousand paper cuts is the best way forward & you’re doing a great job. Methodically laying out the extent of the breach of the law, trust by trust.

brilliant work 🙌

SinnerBoy · 21/04/2025 02:39

Needspaceforlego · Today 00:42

The GMC will need to review the complaints made against him.

I'm pretty certain that they'll come out with some specious psychobabble about how "she" was going through some terrible time because REASONS and after kind words, it now perfectly safe to treat patients in the wild.

Oblomov25 · 21/04/2025 02:56

Nice work @nauticant, as always.

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 21/04/2025 03:08

nebulousMoose · 20/04/2025 22:09

I found the video on how to simulate having a period absolutely repulsive. At any rate, I had a completely visceral reaction to this young woman demonstrating, Blue Peter style, how to make and use artificial menstrual blood.

I suppose the whole delusion people have fallen into about having changed their sex is as the result of being sucked into a cult.

I hadn't thought about it that way before.

Thank you very much@nauticant for continuing these threads. It's quite strange witnessing the unravelling of such a harmful and damaging movement, and I really hope that this tribunal results in a better society for women than the one we have at the moment.

@nebulousMoose that’s a good way of putting this. Visceral. Having experienced some pretty difficult things as a result of my female biology I find this “appropriation” upsetting on a deep level. Somehow like being mocked?

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 21/04/2025 03:11

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 20/04/2025 23:21

From the same article, I'd like to add this to the litany as well

Most worrying of all, they told their young readers that the highly complex and risky surgery performed to make a penis into a vagina is a '“really cool medical procedure”.

I do not understand how adults can be so irresponsible

Edited

I really do worry about how people on the internet can now just broadcast absolutely anything without any kind of filter whatsoever.

nebulousMoose · 21/04/2025 03:30

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 21/04/2025 03:08

@nebulousMoose that’s a good way of putting this. Visceral. Having experienced some pretty difficult things as a result of my female biology I find this “appropriation” upsetting on a deep level. Somehow like being mocked?

Yes @ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly. It's the same baffled, frozen response as when men who say they "are women" claim they can "feel" or experience things that women feel, therefore they can be a woman - but men can't feel those things, they can't experience them, they can't know them. Every day when a woman goes out into the world, all the time, there is a level of consciousness about the presence of possible danger from men. It's something we learnt from when we were very young.

When my sister, who experienced sexual abuse and assault as a child, is faced with a trans woman in the toilets, she freezes. It's a shock. She knows this person, she isn't necessarily afraid of them, but her body reacts.

When we begin our menstruation, that's the beginning of our womanhood. Our bodies are getting ready to bear children. And for some of us, periods are painful, the time before the period begins is intensely stressful, the powerful forces that manoeuvre our bodies are not under our control.

Just as being a woman isn't about wearing high heels and make up and a wig, having a period isn't about bleeding. Menstrual blood is a side-effect, a concrete demonstration of what's going on inside our body.

So yes, we are being mocked. What our bodies tell us is mocked. Our womanhood is stolen, and copied very badly, and taken away from us.

nebulousMoose · 21/04/2025 03:34

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 21/04/2025 03:11

I really do worry about how people on the internet can now just broadcast absolutely anything without any kind of filter whatsoever.

Not just on the Internet either. Jordan Gray came to mind then, stripping off all his clothes on a so-called comedy sketch on TV and playing the piano with his penis whilst pretending to be a woman, because of his pretend breasts that he'd acquired. It was appalling. For me there was a huge disconnect between what I was seeing and hearing and what I know to be true. Knowing that this thing in front of me was a lie and a mockery and not being able to understand it.

CamillaMacauley · 21/04/2025 06:55

SternJoyousBee · 21/04/2025 01:32

I don’t for a second think he believes that he is actually a women. I don’t think he suffers from gender dysphoria or body dysmorphia. I think he is a controlling narcissist with a fetish. But I am biased 🤷‍♀️

You’re probably right.

And the admission he'd treat women who'd requested same sex carers.

surely that would be sexual assault! Hope the gmc agree but am not confident. He certainly needs reporting to them.

nauticant · 21/04/2025 07:52

Can the tribunal still producing a ruling under these circumstances? NHS Fife should not be allowed to get away without some form if ruling or censure against them. They would probably try and wriggle out and make the offer without accepting any liability

Once an Employment Tribunal case is properly underway, the outcomes will be the claimant withdraws their claim, a decision, or both sides agree to settle and there's no decision. NHS Fife won't be able to end this without Sandie Peggie's agreement.

OP posts:
SardinesOnGingerbread · 21/04/2025 08:13

SerenaSemolena · 20/04/2025 13:46

I'm not rubbing my hands in gleeful expectation.

I am. I sound like a cricket.

Love it!

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