NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

Not necessarily. Say that there'd been a discussion in which the NHS said "we'll cover you all the way, so don't worry about that". Then they'd possibly be on the hook if they tried to withdraw.

The moral of the story would seem to be that it is unwise to run a joint defence with someone unless you can guarantee that their interests and yours won't diverge at any point.

I'd be surprised if NHS Fife hadn't already tried to settle before the tribunal so I think we are beyond that anyway.

I think it highly unlikely that Fife would have put themselves in the position of saying to Upton we guarantee your costs no matter what. Cases like this where a conflict of interest arises between joint defendants happen all the time. I can't see any experienced litigator being so stupid. But then again...

I’m really don’t think so. This has come all the way from the top. It has the hand of the Scottish government written all over it, even the secrecy and lack of disclosures which has caused the delays. The NHS in Scotland all have exactly the same policies.
Im pretty sure Scot Gov, who run the NHS in Scotland, would not have allowed Fife to settle, over the changing room part anyway, even if they wanted to

Quite possibly the litigation people would be sensible enough not to make any broad commitments but what do you think the (utterly captured) management might have said to Upton?

Tribunals have been known to award higher damages and some costs where the defendants conduct has been poor. The delays caused by NHS FIFE's refusal to completely disclose would mean if I was the judge Sandie would be getting enhanced damages and some of her costs paid. Fortunately for NHS FIFE I'm not the judge.

I think NHS FIFE might be liable for Upton's costs (and Searle's if she becomes a defendant) as they could be seen as agents of NHS FIFE and were acting in line with NHS FIFE's policies.

But then again...
Indeed.
It's all going to come out whatever the deal was.

Edited to remember my manners and thank Nauticant for sticking with us.

Whilst I agree the utterly captured management might have said anything to Upton I think it more likely the lawyers will have drafted some terms of agreement under which they will represent him. And those will prevail.

I can't remember now, has NHS Fife instructed an independent firm of solicitors? Or are their own in house lawyers handling the whole thing?

I don’t think DU will be accused of lying. We are all allowed to have whatever belief we like. So DU is entitled to express it and not be considered lying. I think it was/is a genuine belief. It came across a genuinely held - but for me delusional. The problem is the expression of those beliefs - using the CR without telling anyone. Or seeking advice until later. There was no policy so that was t checked. That’s the bit where I thought DU was vulnerable to getting the blame. But looking at all the reactions to the SC ruling I think both respondents will be found guilty of at least some charges based on evidence to date. I think NHS Fife will foot the bill for costs and get a pasting from the press/public. UNLESS we hear that the phone evidence is so damning about the victimisation and plotting. That might swing it that some costs are payable … who knows? Red to wait for the rest of the evidence. I can’t wait to hear what Vic Valentine can possibly say in light of the recent judgement. It’s going to make for explosive headlines whether the go for bluff or apology

As well as not having permission, Dr. Upton knew that it was causing discomfort - Sandie and ? at least one other waiting outside before going in - and made a note of this as about transphobia!

Such a good point! DU presented this as evidence of transphobic behaviour. But on the flip side it’s evidence of a hostile working environment

I’ve not posted before but wanted to say, another brave lady standing up for all of us. Thank you Sandie Peggie.

I thought it was interesting that Naomi C specifically characterised the behaviour as live action role play.

Thanks for the new thread, nauticant .

In a rush now so just PMKing.

Could NHS Fife make a submission to the court that it concedes every point made by the complainant and falls upon the mercy of the court for fair restitution for Sandie Peggie's detriments?

Didn't this happen at one tribunal. The respondent admitted discrimination on the first day of the tribunal

@anyolddinosaur referenced a 'brilliant cartoon' at the end of the last thread. Intrigued, I looked for it and found in on this substack - it's worth a look!

https://millihill.substack.com/p/dr-beth-upton-entitled-male-yes-victim

I can believe that Upton isn’t lying and is so delusional that he believes he’s a woman. But if I was involved in any decision over the case then his delusion would make me treat all of his assertions and evidence with a great deal of doubt.

That's a great piece about it being a cult from Milli Hill. And I hadn't come across the simulated periods thing before. Ugh, something else to add to the litany of grimness.

It so is a cult.

Maybe he’s planning an appeal to an even higher tribunal eg the ECHR? Or maybe applying for a Canadian visa.

I found the video on how to simulate having a period absolutely repulsive. At any rate, I had a completely visceral reaction to this young woman demonstrating, Blue Peter style, how to make and use artificial menstrual blood.

I suppose the whole delusion people have fallen into about having changed their sex is as the result of being sucked into a cult.

I hadn't thought about it that way before.

Thank you very much@nauticant for continuing these threads. It's quite strange witnessing the unravelling of such a harmful and damaging movement, and I really hope that this tribunal results in a better society for women than the one we have at the moment.

Just to keep everyone up to date:

The Telegraph has just published an article on the NHS single sex spaces audit started by @KnottyAuty - this time on our investigation of the London trusts:

www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/84716a16d54d73c7

(including a comment from Helen Joyce!)

Direct link and archive link coming up in a min.