NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

Completely agree. I watched both days of him being cross-examined. Day one, I thought he was delusional. Day two, I decided he's a liar. He knows fine well he's no woman, and everyone around him knows he a man, but they're too scared to speak the truth. He's lying through his teeth, and he's got the entire organisation wrapped round his finger. I think he's a manipulative, controlling narcissist.

So if Fife just stop defending the indefensible the action , and Sandie wants a written judgement then she can carry on, call witnesses and the let the judge provide his judgement on the whole case?

@Supporterofwomensrights That's the one. There are others by the same person. It's an unfair portrayal of Dr Upton's appearance but the discrepancy in size makes the point.

It's better than that Conxis. If NHS Fife weren't providing a counter to Sandie Peggie's case that she could continue with, then, unless she was saying outlandish things, it would be the uncontested version that most likely the panel would use in making their decision.

The way NHS Fife have run their case would have been effective against just a little person with scant means and not much support. However, not only would it seem that Sandie Peggie's means are effectively unlimited, the adjournment has proved to be extremely unfortunate to NHS Fife in terms of the law having moved on in a hugely significant way that is to their detriment.

The timing is very unfortunate for NHS Fife.

The mere suggestion of doing this behind closed doors given the sheer amount of news coverage and public interest in the supreme court, looks even more crazy and I'll judged than it did before.

And that was an action in the last fortnight.

I’m sure it will be the Scottish Gov who decide whether to carry on defending or not. They very much run the NHS in Scotland and this mess is very much of their doing. The NHS Scotland central legal dept are footing the bill.
I hope for Sandie’s sake she gets her written judgement, and I’m sure her very astute solicitor will make sure it’s printed in most newspapers in the land.

As that came out I was so shocked. I feel many people now struggle to understand what being professional really means.

What worries me now (and it's a nice worry to have granted) is how the likely victory of Sandie will be "spun" by TRA and the press.

It's a great opportunity to change views. She was just an experienced nurse politely objecting to being forced to change in front of a biological man. One who comes across as extremely entitled. And for that she was suspended for a long period and threatened with losing her job.

I'm thinking of the ridiculous misinformation on the SC "the rollback of LGBTQ rights - especially trans rights is global, bankrolled by billionaires and the far right". From a female MP. We don't know who's funding Sandie, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was JK Rowling.

Incidentally it should have been her nurses union funding her, the cowards!

The respondents are getting a taste of their own medicine. They unlawfully held staff choice on changing rooms and pronouns. Now Sandie gets to lawfully hold them in the tribunal process where all their actions come under public scrutiny. It’s delicious!

Wtaf?
That is indescribably upsetting! But also not surprising of course.
I pray the GMC throw Upton out.

To be fair his comments were much cleverer and not as direct as stated here. The threat of reporting the patient and refusing treatment was more implied from what I remember. So the words could be denied, but the threat seemed more likely than not to be there

Unfortunately the GMC are captured and their system seems to facilitate deception (haven’t actually researched in detail).

What worries me now (and it's a nice worry to have granted) is how the likely victory of Sandie will be "spun" by TRA and the press.

My worry is that if the judgement goes Sandie Peggie's way and against NHS Fife quite a number of senior staff will be expected to fall on their swords. But it will be that Sandie Peggie has brought them down, not Upton's stupid behaviour which has done so.

From the Telegraph article:

Mr Barclay (Steve, former Health Secretary) told The Telegraph it was “appalling that women-only spaces continue to be compromised across so many hospitals because of the radical agenda of a number of NHS managers.

This is the first time I understand how on earth has the NHS as an entity managed o act illegally so blatantly until now. It boils down to some specific fanatical individuals. I can't quite get my head round this (I do realise I can be a bit... slow/naïve 🙄)

My question is, can those people now be disciplined and sacked for acting illegally, in view of the clarification by the SC?

My observation of the case lead me to believe Upton is an abuser and his method is coercive control. He manipulates language and attempts to undermine reality. He tried it on NC (unsuccessfully - but even trying in this setting suggests he's never been challenged before). The problem is that the NHS policies seem explicitly set up to help abusers like this to abuse vulnerable women.

The idea that a patient could be denied medical care and potentially physically harmed because they recognize the biological reality of sex is definitely something that the law and politicians need to explore and put a stop to. Imagine doing this to a dementia patient?
It surely must be criminal to deny care because a patient's observation is different to a doctor's unscientific belief?

I think most people see how incompetent Fife has been, and Sandie’s clever solicitor will make sure all the right bits hit the news.
Even people who don’t know the full issues I’ve spoken to have remarked that this is all the hospitals fault for not finding some other private place for the Dr to change

Totally agree the union have let her and the Darlington nurses down.
They aren't just fighting for themselves they are fighting for every female hospital worker in the country. Because who know what hospital these people are going to turn up in next.

I missed that one. Surely that's an abuse of powers?
I'm beginning to think he's a very very dangerous man.

I really hope someone is now going to sue their union for refusing to represent them against their employer who was BREAKING THE LAW! What was the point of paying their membership fees.
Not Sandie obviously as she has enough in her plate!

Thanks for this - I have reported my post asked for it to be deleted.

One hallmark of coercive control is to use the authorities against a victim.

This is recognised.

Yet recognition of coercive control by authorities is astonishingly poor. And is recognised to be so too. Meanwhile transactivism has been inescapable.

We are also supposed to believe that the risk of coercive control in the context of assisted suicide is minimal.

It's bonkers.

Thing is the NHS policy audit shows the NHS has redefined the meaning of the word women and single sex to mean 'any man who says he's a woman' and mixed sex.

So it's not beyond them to redefine 'abusive' to mean 'believes in scientific reality'. There are already policies that say abusive patients can be denied care. It's going to be tedious to have to bring court cases about the meaning of 'abusive' but the NHS seems so divorced from reality we may have to.

Conxis · Today 11:21

I really hope someone is now going to sue their union for refusing to represent them against their employer who was BREAKING THE LAW! What was the point of paying their membership fees.

I posted exactly that a couple of weeks ago. They should also get their subs back, with interest - they weren't simply abandoned, they were thrown to the wolves, as the union cheered on.