NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

And this is why I want to scream when all the bekinders say “But they don’t do this [where “this” is identify as a woman] for fun/on purpose you know!”

How many different ways do we need to say, yes, they effing do?!?

Maybe (a la “not all men”) not all trans-identifying men (though stats suggest more than non-trans-identifying men), but, just like your garden variety men, the bad trans-identified men don’t wear signs or twist their evil moustaches in an easily identifiable way. So, you know, keep ‘em all out.

That is just so fucked up. Very dystopian.

Good for your husband and his colleagues for disagreeing, but as for the people instigating and enforcing this? Have they no brains? Have they not heard of Isla Bryson, Katie Dolatowski, the rape on the "women only" ward? Or do they just not care about women (very probably they don't).

I have managed to get the figures from the ONS about women, but does anyone have figures for me regarding the incidence of assaults and harassment on Trans people please?

I'd love to see the comparisons, because I strongly question the glib statement that trans people are some of the most discriminated against.
From what I have read about Upton, no one was discriminating against him as a trans woman, and I am pretty sure that is typical.

Oh come on now - DU understood - someone had once touched their leg...
Oh if that was all that sexual harassment was about, there wouldn't be any fuss would there? I've had to think really deeply about why the idea of changing in front of strange males is so abhorrent to me. I realised that my first sexual assault was before I was 10 and I've never counted the basic unwanted touching on legs and arms as one of my incidents - only breasts or bum.... DD says she's never had any sexual harassment which is brilliant - I am thrilled that she's not having to tolerate that shit. BUT I am realising that it means she is totally naive when assessing risk. And I think that is maybe why the BeKinders also don't seem to "understand".... If you never had your pants pulled down by boys at school or there wasn't a topless calendar on the wall in your first office job then I suppose a bit of leg touching might seem like "assault". The idea that DU shouldn't have to reveal any details to access the female CR but I would have to justify my need for a male free space is revolting to me.

Iirc adding KS as a corespondent arose from her unprofessional email being in the evidence provided by defence in dribs & drabs & very late, after the hearing started, making it a possible reason for adding her late.

Late to the thread 23 party, but hope I can sneak in. Still reading, still learning so much.
I estimate thread 42 by the July date.

Nurse in trans row ‘unlikely’ to have put patients at risk

www.thetimes.com/article/3e1d0ecc-fea7-45cc-8f29-cb793e9b1d7c?shareToken=b446a3f5d5bf244e8228b99707e47194

Just arrived in The Times. Haven't read it yet.

Comments are allowed so will add any good ones.

Thank you for the share.

A solicitor acting for Sandie Peggie, a nurse who says she faced discrimination as a result of NHS Fife allowing Dr Beth Upton into female changing rooms, revealed that an internal health board investigation had sided with her client in relation to a potentially “career-ending” allegation that she failed to provide proper patient care.

In a letter to Holyrood’s equalities committee, seen by The Times, Margaret Gribbon said that a further allegation of jeopardising patient safety made against Peggie by Upton, who is biologically male but identifies as female, had been directly contradicted by an eyewitness.

Despite this, NHS Fife has told Peggie, a nurse for 30 years, she could yet be sacked as a result of the allegations.

I don't see that going well for them.

"A spokesman said: “It is important to recognise that at the heart of this case are two employees, who should be treated with kindness and respect."

Kindness and respect; say what, now?

Sorry for being lazy here and not looking back through earlier threads or consulting Google.

I would like to understand what makes a business need to carry out an equality impact assessment. Can anyone summarise or direct me where to look please?

Wow, this is significant, isn't it?
a further allegation of jeopardising patient safety made against Peggie by Upton, who is biologically male but identifies as female, had been directly contradicted by an eyewitness.
Despite this, NHS Fife has told Peggie, a nurse for 30 years, she could yet be sacked as a result of the allegations.

New Herald piece on Murray Blackburn Mackenzie heroically holding the government to account yet again. archive.is/OjTdj

Archive against token lapsing

archive.is/R2Dio

We’re so fortunate to have MBM doing the work that they do.

When I think of these and so many other splendid women I feel we need a Katniss Everdeen sign equivalent.

It makes me wish I'd studied law so I could work / study with such amazing women like these legal feminists.

I've not been involved for a good while, but most healthcare policies & processes should have an EA before being introduced.

This example is from NHS England.
www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/nhs-england-equality-and-health-inequalities-impact-assessment-ehia/

Oh me too! I've been thinking what can I do. I wish I was clever enough to be part of an English MBM and really make a difference. I've joined my workplace SEEN, so that's a start.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/why-simple-good-manners-could-have-avoided-sandie-peggie-beth-upton-tribunal-5014061#

Just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should. Was it good sense or good manners to put junior members of staff in a situation where they may have felt fearful or alarmed?

The lesson is always do an investigation as though it might end up at ET.

Absolutely this. I have investigated staff cases and was advised to approach it as if you may be called to testify if it goes to tribunal. You focus on fact finding. You don’t make leaps of logic in your investigation report, you state only what you can evidence. I was lucky to have good advice from more experienced colleagues. It is evident many employers do not give their investigating officers enough guidance and support.

Aberdeen’s local broadsheet now also publishing - haven’t seen them cover this up to now.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/politics/6705348/nhs-grampian-trans-changing-rooms/

The Scottish press are clearly getting a lot of clicks on their articles to want to have new ones daily?!

That's a pretty rubbish 'opinion' for a former police officer. Society doesn't leave conflicts of rights to be determined by 'good manners'. That's why we have laws. And NHS Fife didn't follow them. Stupid man. He seems to think it was all just a silly spat between senior and junior staff that Fife allowed to get out of hand.

An extremely male opinion on the issue.

The thing is that if there WAS a policy, wouldn’t it just follow the line of the multitude of other public, and private, sector policies that currently allow self ID via the “use whatever facility suits your gender ID best … “?

If NHS Fife had had such a policy it would surely have aligned to the DEI position given.

Good to see continuing coverage though.